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Posted: January 5, 2019, 12:54 PM
What Parenting2 said. Unless the alkie or addict wants to change them going to rehab for friends, family or court it won't work. Like many things in life it's a matter of how bad someone really wants it.
Do they want to change. Will they accept help and instruction. Will they follow court mandate or even personal boundaries set by friends & family.. They have to want to accept all these things. It's not just a matter of completing a program or appeasing someone because that's what they'll wind up doing. Appeasing, kissing butt, put on show, curry favor etc are not wanting to change. Wanting to change is motivation. | ||
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Joined: July 6, 2018
Posted: January 5, 2019, 5:13 PM
It is hard enough convincing a 16 year old to do normal things, I can't imagine trying to do an intervention.
Like everyone has said,becareful how much money you put on the line. We all tried the old ,"if I can just get them through this time". Good luck.I hope something changed soon. | ||
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Joined: December 23, 2018
Posted: January 5, 2019, 11:07 PM
Awww P2 - that's heartbreaking, but I think I agree. We were talking about my son & realized he's never gone to rehab because he was tired of his life but because he 1st didn't want to lose his wife & 2nd his job.
Right now he's "calm" again but I'm suspicious of everything he says & does | ||
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Joined: June 27, 2016
Posted: January 6, 2019, 12:38 AM
Parenting2 – the PS to your last post says it all. Although it feels like a stab in the heart, it helps to hear that. Words like that from your son harden your heart and be more firm on pulling back and not giving him more than you need to. It still hurts. One time a while back my son texted a response to me - he said "Focus on something else" kind of a similar statement.
Mtnmom – I wanted to comment on a few of your posts. I think when your son was ranting and demanding things from you and family members he was in withdrawal. Then he gave up and stopped talking to everyone. Then he got hooked up w doc (drug of choice) and is not harassing you now. Bringing the gf by was probably a show of ‘good behavior’ so you will feel kind to him and give in to giving him something. He is calm again bc he is using. Don’t answer the phone. You are already set up in a good position. He has been out of your house, he can not live there. You have not been financially supporting him. You have no strings attached to him. He has been on his own for a long time. Keep it that way. Do Not give him anything at all. Only tell him the information of where he can find help, and to go to social services and unemployment and an employment agency. he will avoid you. Get angry if you have to. Practice being angry. Role play w your husband. If he shows up at the house – throw on your coats and say your headed out to a dr. apmt. If it is at night, say your having dinner w friends – don’t want to be late! And jump in the car. Don’t say you are going to grocery store. He may want you to buy him stuff. I am trying to save you from the worst bc I have not been able to save myself yet... I am slowly getting there. This post has been edited by NyToFlorida on January 6, 2019, 12:47 AM | ||
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Posted: January 6, 2019, 1:13 AM
It looks like us parents are in a lose, lose situation. Can't deal w them at home and heartbreaking to put them out. or watch them suffer from a far.
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Joined: November 9, 2018
Posted: January 6, 2019, 9:44 AM
I think the thing to remember is if they are in active addiction they are going to do it with or without you. So I choose without because they will drain you of all resources mental, physical, financial, their life becomes your life....I don't make things up I am straight up with my daughter. I don't get angry at her I tell her I believe in her and I hope she used the gifts God gave her.
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Joined: July 6, 2018
Posted: January 6, 2019, 10:51 AM
While my daughter was in active heavy addiction,there was no way she would have chosen rehab. I now see how different she is, now that she is mostly clean. I wish that I would have held my bottom line 10 years ago. She may not have changed then but I would be better off.
I still want to "fix" things for her.I have to be careful that I dont fall in to that habit. | ||
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Joined: June 27, 2016
Posted: January 6, 2019, 11:51 AM
thank you all. I agree with all of you. I have the similar thoughts.
I think we have been in this addiction cycle for about 6 yrs. we did kick him out in 2014 - he got a job in FL. said he would get life together. a new start. the whole year he was still in addiction - still while working a labor job with machinery! constantly saying "I'm trying". end of that year came home 2015?- new job with housing and higher pay! still doing addiction dance. car accident - lost job. we sent him to rehab in FL. 4-5 months clean then relapse. end of that year went to different rehab. a really good place for people who want to work at being sober. after 4 months he relapsed. end of that year 2016 - lived with family member 4 months clean. Came home begin of 2017 - addiction Hell living w gf for one year. 2018 - living at home - rehab in May - clean for 3 mos. relapsed in Sept. I think we know now how 'normal' he can be without drugs and he is so close, so we give him tools to be successful. I also now know that we can not keep 'helping'. he needs to step up and be responsible for his own stuff. The most basic 'help' just keeps him able to stay in addiction. My goal this week is to tell him he needs to detox by his next pay check or move out. And he needs to give me 300 per paycheck. (I will pay his cred cards and loans with it). I have told him I am not paying them any more. so If he does not give me $ they will not be paid this month. we are letting him use a junk car. we all know it is very close to the end of life. yesterday he said he wants me to bring it to the shop, it needs to be fixed without dad knowing. ha! I said that's not happening. he should take a day off work and bring it to shop. he said He cant do that! he said Normal people bring the car to the shop. I said Then bring it to the shop! he walked out... yet , he keep driving and driving it. Normal person would only use it for work and conserve it's life span. He has two friends that "work on cars" --- yet they are not available to fix it. I do plan to tell him to go back to the dr and therapist at recovery center. It has always been hard for us to have those conversations. I see this is part of our enabling trap - because we cant say what we want to say. I do see that when we push him, he reacts positively. Then we coast - thinking he will continue to do the right thing. but he does not... It has given me more strength because I have seen him clean and know that he can do it. It does help me to get to the point that we need to cut him off. I do think he wants to be clean but the addiction is too strong. It will be quite a struggle in the next weeks. In the spring he tried to wd on his own, but was not able to. it was a nightmare for a few weeks. this time we will be more prepared and so will he. if he cant do on his own, he will have to go to detox at the hospital. sounds like a plan to me.... :-( I guess my mistake is thinking he will do this on his own. This post has been edited by NyToFlorida on January 6, 2019, 11:52 AM | ||
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Posted: January 6, 2019, 1:08 PM
That's good you refused to keep his dad uninformed. This could lead to conflating strategies/conclusions.
I didn't tell someone about something the alkie did just onetime and felt really bad. But luckily it worked out. I held back for a while on telling others in the family about a dui because I knew there would be those who would've thrown a ton money at them for a lawyer, penalties, car insurance etc because they couldn't handle seeing him hit a bottom or fall for his unjust arrest story. But necessity being the mother of all invention forced to him to get his own lawyer, call in favors , get financing etc. I wouldn't pay the bills for him unless he sits down with you as you write the checks or go some where and pay in person. He has to understand taking the time and effort to do these things no matter how seemingly minor are his responsibility. | ||
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Posted: January 6, 2019, 2:02 PM
Yes, NTF why doesn't he pay his own loan and credit card bills himself?
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Posted: January 6, 2019, 4:50 PM
NY2FL - thanks for your reply. You & I have been down the same road & now my son is trying as hard as he can to pull us into his drama too. I AM practicing being mad & annoyed - and truthfully, I DON'T want him to call. Too much drama.... Thank you
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Posted: January 6, 2019, 8:51 PM
sallyanna -- Why isn't he paying his own bills -> It goes back to something Walkedon said - If I knew what I know now, 10 years ago, I would have been much harder on him - or in letting him deal w his stuff. It is something that morphed into me paying things.
Whenever he has been working, which has been most of the last 6 years except when in rehab, I have a joint account w him and when he got paid I would electronically transfer the amount needed for his bills to my account and/or pay from his account. Since October 2017 he was between jobs - job nov-april 2018- then rehab - odd jobs - june to Aug part time job - we were glad he was working, going to meetings, going to IOP - I had taken over paying only the student loan. and one cred card that was $25 per month. I chose to pay the student loan bc the interest is a nightmare and the loans do not go away if you defer or become delinquent. Our behavior goes back to my husband's childhood where he was often disappointed. While our children grew up he made sure no one was sad or disappointed. … vacations, skiing, everything they wanted at Christmas. we thought we were teaching by example - do these things right, and you will have the things we have. Instead we may have made it look too easy - so they think these things just appear - and don't have to work for it. Of course part of it is in the Genes. My youngest has never wanted things and still never asks for any money even for the smallest item. Part of it is bc she grew up watching her sister and brother be A-holes. As the kids grew older our son took advantage of this. Knowing that we had the safety net ready. He always says he will do (whatever) we wait and wait and he doesn't. I do not pay for everything that comes along. He has had many letters from collection agencies - that I do not pay. this past Rehab was at local hospital - we paid nothing. I paid a few copays at the recovery center IOP, He did have a "sleeping in parked car with engine running while under the influence" - he has been going to court monthly - we have paid nothing and have not participated. just when we thought he would be working full time, he lost that job in Oct. got new job in Nov - waited 3 wks for 1st check - we keep floating him to "be sure he gets to work" then a couple of checks - he gave me $ at first and then didn't... and so on. Regarding work - my husband thinks work is a priority over everything. and that is solves all problems. we would rather he is at work and not sitting in our home all day. Sorry this is so long - I felt I needed to explain myself. He is an 80-90% good young adult/child - so we keep giving him the benefit of the doubt - hoping he will have enough of this and see how addiction is the problem. So this is how it goes on and on. We are at the point where husband and I will give him the altimatum. but I think he see's it is coming. he is avoiding us more. In the past it has only been when everything is gone (car - job - home) that he goes to rehab. but he still does not go easily. This post has been edited by NyToFlorida on January 6, 2019, 9:21 PM | ||
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Posted: January 6, 2019, 9:26 PM
He has made more improvements this year and had stuck to meetings and IOP longer. I am hoping he gained some knowledge and this won't be as bad as last spring. 'this' meaning us pushing him to detox and pay your own way or move out situation.
his relapse started in Sept w alcohol. then moved on to other stuff (I am thinking cocaine and/or H) but Im not sure. he seems to not do alcohol and other stuff at the same time. he has always said he does nothing compared to what he has heard other people do when he has been in rehab. so I do think he does enough to keep from being sick, but it does consume his paycheck - probly buying enough for friends. this brings me to another mom who's son is no bother, pays rent, works, helps w things. I feel like one step below that. I do understand why she is upset. why has this gone on so long? maybe we are slow learners. This post has been edited by NyToFlorida on January 6, 2019, 9:29 PM | ||
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Posted: January 6, 2019, 9:39 PM
It is so tough. I hear ya, NY.
I think part of the problem is learning to recognize and deal with the expert manipulation. They know how to play us, they know how to stall us, they know how to con us, and they know just what to say to "throw us off" or "give them one more chance" or ever so subtly start passing the responsibility to us. I have no idea how aware my son is that he does these things and how much a personality disorder plays into this behavior. For the most part, I have stopped caring about the whys. This has definitely been a crazy process. Seeing some people arrive in my shoes a couple years ago....It REALLY has brought memories and had me thinking hard. Such a sad, lonely, desparate journey this has been for me. I would like to add here, something profound like...."But, it has made me a stronger person or I have learned so much"...But, really it just makes me sick. I am surviving and learning but I get no satisfaction out of this. Maybe I just need to reflect or vent, but I did almost everything 'right'. Moved home so they would know their grandparents, took a flexible job so I could be there for them, camping, sports, didn't drink or smoke. When I noticed a problem when he was little took him to counseling, parent conferences, special camp, psychiatrist, testing... When my bottom dropped, was when he turned 17 & had shared his "declaration of freedom". He'd been living a lie, and lying since he was 13. He gave me this speech and took off on his 17th birthday, staying out all night. Over the next few months, I realized he HAD been living a totally secret life and any boundaries he was keeping for 'show' were gone now. He knew more about the law than I did and used to it to his advantage. We basically had just a crappy, stressful, SHOCK-filled, desparate time over the next year. In the beginning, people would tell me to detach, but when this was fresh, I was rabid, like a lot of you probably were. Momma Bear was going to stop this crap NOW. But, no matter what I did, even driving around looking for him, confronting his friends, taking all his things away....calling the police. NOTHING stopped the freight train moving down the tracks. His friends got sketchier and sketchier, with worse and worse records. That was about 2 years ago. I cannot believe it has been that long ago. Now, he is a little more mature, stopped using spice (that stuff is of the devil, I swear). He is more like his old self, but still has addiction issues. I am fatigued with it. Last month, he had some legal trouble and could not use for a whole month. He bought a present, wrote me a letter, had clarity and insight. Honestly, it was just as hard as when he was using for me. I knew it probably was going to come to an end and tried to keep my heart in check, but of course...off went my heart. It just happens when you are a Mom. I am trying to be grateful that I had that time with him. And, really try to detach, release all things I have my claws into. He still tries to connive and manipulate. Transfer responsibility. Slowly he is creeping back to his old ways. Not as bad, yet, but you know...that creep...Suddenly a friend who was horrible is not so bad. And, all these reasons creep up why he needs to go here or there. I fought really hard to create a healthy, peaceful life for myself. I want that back & I am getting it back. I am getting stronger about demanding respect and demanding my house is like I want it. But, he will push and push... I have come to the conclusion that he is going to have a difficult life and he needs to own that and find out what works for him. Seriously, we all have to do that. Before answering or doing anything, I try to do a manipulation check. And, ask other people, as it is so easy to be deluded. I don't know if this makes much sense but thanks for listening/reading. I guess what I am saying is that the only way to have sanity is to hold your line. And, transferring 100% responsibility back to them. Running around, spending money, setting up appointments, running interference- I did that all. And, it amounted to zero. To end on a positive note, I am enjoying the moment more, because it is really all I have. I turn off my phone and escape on hikes. I really work hard on dumping all the crap and moving forward. Because of being here on this board, I learned how to hold the line and be tougher. I think it has helped him a little. But, in the end, I realize nothing I do matters because he has to decide what he wants his life to look like. All I can do is offer unconditional love and not enable. | ||
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Posted: January 6, 2019, 10:34 PM
Thank you - Parenting - I remember about a year ago or more you were advocating for your son - trying to save him and yourself and family - going to the school, therapist, etc. a year ago I started therapy, and got on the "save yourself' wagon. We were both successful to a point - getting them into rehab situation. and then it was up to them. we sit back and watch and wait. and now we are at that point again. I have to start figuring out how to take more ground and save ourselves for good. We (husband and I ) have made good progress in the last year. So now again, I see that we cant 'coast' we have to keep drawing lines in the sand.
I am seeing that this could go on forever. I have to change my plan of action. We are not ready to move to a retirement area, but we could downsize and stay local. On one hand it could be seen as our son driving us out of our home. On the other hand - the house is too big and time consuming - I would like to live simplier. especially if I am out of the house so much. I plan to study again for the state real estate license. I passed a class and took a break for the holidays. I will work my regular job full time and then try to do real estate part time. my motherinlaw had surgery recently so I am going to help her once a week. I know it will be tire some, but it will get me out of the house. give me an excuse to not be available, maybe I will find some opportunity in RE - in finding our next home/rental/condo This post has been edited by NyToFlorida on January 6, 2019, 10:43 PM | ||
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Posted: January 6, 2019, 10:58 PM
That really hit home with me-that it can go on forever. I see how it is easily possible. Just one more time, just one more assist, just one more month of help, or just a little to help get a job...Never ends.
I don't blame you in regards to moving. I am looking forward to when all the kids have graduated and I can leave the area. It is good way to seriously cut ties. I do remember our similar stories and all the others here. It helps so much to have people on these boards to talk and listen. Wishing you peace tonight, NY! | ||
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Posted: January 6, 2019, 11:12 PM
Hi - I popped back in to say Creeping in.... yes that is what has happened. It creeps back in. Sept-Oct he was a wreck, Nov got new job - things looking better. one week looking good, next week not so sure, next week yup its a relapse - next week - looking better - must be trying - lets see how it goes - next week -- wtf ---
lol thanks everyone for not judging too much and being able to read and vent and compare helps A LOT ! This post has been edited by NyToFlorida on January 6, 2019, 11:12 PM | ||
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Posted: January 7, 2019, 12:06 AM
Thanks NTF and P2 for sharing your experiences and insights with us.
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Posted: January 9, 2019, 2:11 PM
Parenting2 - thanks for sharing your story. I get so much out of this board. I identified with the “mama bear is going to put a stop to this NOW”. Lol - that didn’t work out so well. I was literally searching for him in the streets, knocking on doors of sketchy houses in the middle of the night, dragging him to the police to be assessed, locking him in the house and sleeping in front of his bedroom door... none of it worked! It was an Oscar-worthy performance, but unfortunately there were no real changes.
I also identify with the ambivalence about hope. We had two days before the holidays where my son was talking and acting normal. It was so strange. My husband was excited and described the feeling as ‘hopeful’, but I didn’t. I find hope unsettling because hope can be crushed. It reminds me of what I have lost, and what I stand to lose again if things don’t turn out as I want them to. This is going to be a long road. I am better off preparing for the reality ahead than to hope for a better future. Preparing for the worst steels me against a false hope. I can’t control what happens, but I can prepare for it. | ||
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Posted: January 9, 2019, 6:51 PM
parenting2--
your post could have been written word for word by me! Our sons must be twins except for the age difference. Your post reflects my exact story, thoughts, and plan (if you can call it that). Thanks for writing it for me--lol!! Lori | ||
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