Methadone-longterm Or Not
Posted: October 11, 2011, 9:15 PM


Posts: 108
Joined: August 1, 2011



Irab. I dislike flame wars, and am very much a newbie, both in terms of recovery and posting on message boards. Perhaps a smidge of humility is in order? I've a medical background as well: anecdotal, experiential, and academic. Lay your soul bare here and you will be embraced. Defend your walls and you will be assaulted without cease.

Just my two cents...

--------------------
"I'm so miserable without you that it's almost like you're here"
-A Country Song


"Catch an eyeful, catch an earful, and don't drop what you have caught."
-William Carlos Williams
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Posted: October 11, 2011, 9:54 PM


Posts: 267
Joined: September 22, 2011



Welcome to the newbie Rosiegirl !

May you have a blessed recovery journey and thanks for sharing !

My story is posted in various threads in this forum. THAT is NOT the problem.
There is undue resentment, bashing, and abuse from hardened distrustful manipulative type addicts who bear grudges against doctors. THAT is the problem.

As I said, I am only here to help. I too dislike "flame wars" and won't enter into argument with anyone ! That is not why I am here c/s for 12 years with much to share with people who can be tolerant, and accepting - because that is what 12 steps is all about.
In case you are not familiar read BB Pg449 3rd edition.

What I post is what I believe are true and correct facts, reality test some, and confront some others. and share my experience and story. Thats it.

My experience with Boards like this , which some use as a substitute for real life meanings, is that they are in "Spiritual Bypass" - going thru the motions of recovery without the underlying spiritual change(s). These boards are NOT a substitute for real life meetings and having a real life sponsor.
In other words they talk the talk - but don't walk the walk. If they did
they would be filled with tolerance, acceptance, understanding, gratitude and appreciation for a fellow addict. I am one of them - but they "don't buy it " !!
Gradually, however, I have seen some come around, and see them realize: that we do not BASH our fellows in recovery ! We support them !

This post has been edited by irab on October 11, 2011, 10:04 PM

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Blessings,
Dr. Irab
retired psychiatrist
freebaser of cocaine for 2 years +alcohol
addict/alcoholic
c/s 12 yrs thru 12 step.
Former Medical Director:
Methadone Maintenance Clinic.
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Posted: October 11, 2011, 10:41 PM


Posts: 8683
Joined: April 24, 2007



The attacks do seem to be a little out of control. I think whenever things make us that angry we need to take a few deep breaths, step back, and look more closely - not at others, but at ourselves. I actually do believe that irab may very well be a doctor, but it doesn't really matter...he's as entitled to an opinion as anyone else...and as likely to be on the receiving end of others' opinions. He's not YOUR doctor and has said he's no longer practicing...but he is an addict in recovery...just like everyone else. And I dislike the notion that anyone here will be "assaulted".

Peace ~ M&M

This post has been edited by MomNMore on October 11, 2011, 10:43 PM

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You will not change what you are willing to tolerate.

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Posted: October 12, 2011, 1:31 AM


Posts: 2616
Joined: January 4, 2008



Just what exactly is a "hardened" addict ? and how does that apply to those of us here in recovery ?...yes,he is entitled to his opinion, but when that opinion is misinformed and with no idea of what it is like to either be on methadone or a heroin addict...then im not buying it...no one is bashing Mr. doc here for being a cocaine addict, we have asked him more than a few times to go then to his own board over in the cocaine area and share there about his experiences as an addict...if he is 12 stepping then he knows its by sharing his addict experiences that is the basis of helping...but he refuses to share anything about his own addiction...he comes to the heroin board and spews misinformation and bigoted opinions on heroin addicts... this board is where I come to be safe and to work on my recovery....NOT to hear all the other ridiculous garbage he has spewed...Doctor envy ?...you have got to be kidding...read some of his other little jewels of expertise on how heroin addicts and those of us on methadone should be treated... perhaps electric shock therapy will be next in his bag of how we should be "helped"....

This post has been edited by constantine on October 12, 2011, 1:35 AM
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Posted: October 12, 2011, 10:15 AM


Posts: 267
Joined: September 22, 2011



Thanks for the support of Momnmore !

I know heroin addicts real real well !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was never one myself BUT I worked with many many of them !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By hardcore I mean essentially lacking the capacity to be honest, stealing, robbing, street people !! - Although some of the worst of the hardcore people do recover or stay on methadone for lifetime and do just fine !

I NEED TO POST A DISCLAIMER:

NOTHING WRITTEN BY ME IS INTENDED TO BE, AND MUST NOT BE TAKEN TO BE, THE PRACTICE OF MEDICINE, INCLUDING PSYCHOLOGY, PSYCHIATRY, OR PSYCHOTHERAPY, OR PROVIDING HEALTH CARE ADVICE OR INSTRUCTION FOR DIAGNOSIS OR TREATMENT.


--------------------
Blessings,
Dr. Irab
retired psychiatrist
freebaser of cocaine for 2 years +alcohol
addict/alcoholic
c/s 12 yrs thru 12 step.
Former Medical Director:
Methadone Maintenance Clinic.
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Posted: October 12, 2011, 4:29 PM


Posts: 1059
Joined: August 29, 2011



MomNMore,
While I understand where you what you are saying......

My concern and the ONLY reason I got involved in this conversation in the first place was because the good Dr. was giving incorrect information about methadone. It already has such a BAD stigma attached to it regardless of all the national advocating organizations out there trying to dispell the myths about taking it.
While it may have a few side effects to deal with while taking it, sweating,constipation, it saves lives every day. It has less side effects to it than most over the counter drugs we take by the handfuls every day in this country.

I just want the truth to be told, not speculation by someone who readily admits he's never taken it, only prescribed it. You cant ever know unless you have taken it yourself.

JUST THE TRUTH,plain and simple.

Granny

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I NEVER KNEW HOW MUCH LOVE MY HEART COULD HOLD UNTIL SOMEONE CALLED ME GRANDMA.


STOP AND LISTEN TO THE BIRDS SINGING IN THE TREES. WHEN THE BIRDS ARE SINGING EVERYTHING IN LIFE IS OK.[FONT=Courier][FONT=Arial]
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Posted: October 12, 2011, 7:05 PM


Posts: 108
Joined: August 1, 2011



MNM: Poor choice of words on my part. I shouldn't post when I'm running on 2 hrs of sleep. I think I used that verbiage because he seems to feel like he's being assaulted.

The point I was trying to make was that it comes off as arrogant and impertinent to show up on a board that many people consider a second home, then start dishing out opinions and tossing medical acronyms around without some kind of quid pro quo in terms of sharing personal recovery experience. There's a big difference between sharing personal experience and offering unsolicited advice. Just my opinion though.

And with that, I'm out...

--------------------
"I'm so miserable without you that it's almost like you're here"
-A Country Song


"Catch an eyeful, catch an earful, and don't drop what you have caught."
-William Carlos Williams
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Posted: October 12, 2011, 8:19 PM


Posts: 8683
Joined: April 24, 2007



Presumably some of you know me well enough (Con, Jack) to know where I stand on the issues of heroin addiciton and treatment...this is my board, and y'all are my people. But I stand by the statement about anger...this is a clear case of take what you like and leave the rest. Perhaps you recall, Con, that there was a certain poster a few years back that made me want to stick needles in my eyes rather than read his posts...and yet I took the bait each and every time and he was as misinformed on issues of codependency and addiction as they come. I fed the flames (and no doubt the ego) instead of just leaving it alone.

irab, please do not misinterpret my post as support for your positions which I find unenlightened at best...I merely defend your right to post to them as I defend everyone's right to speak their opinions...it is the nature of a public forum. Medical degrees mean precious little to most of us here...we are of the experiential learning bent most of us.

QUOTE
By hardcore I mean essentially lacking the capacity to be honest, stealing, robbing, street people !!


Why do you presume that they lack the capacity? You have a dim and pessimistic view of your fellow addicts...what makes you so special and NOT hardcore? Were you honest in your addiction? Straightforward and above board in your dealings with others? If so, hats off to you for accomplishing what most find exceedingly difficult in addiciton since society does not treat the addict kindly.

Peace ~ M&M



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You will not change what you are willing to tolerate.

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Posted: October 12, 2011, 9:59 PM


Posts: 267
Joined: September 22, 2011



When I was an active addict I was ever so dishonest and hung around with some of the biggest lowlife street types you could imagine - crack + tar heroin )
I was always manipulating my environment , lying - to get the drug

My story is in the cocaine thread under "available to help"
I became an addict ( at age 56) long after my job in the methadone clinic.

I prescribed methadone to hundreds of people thru the years in doses ranging of 10mg/day way up to 170 -180 mg/day

Methadone is metabolized in the liver. If there is a marked disturbance of liver function, the methadone may not get metabolized properly - like in chronic alcoholics with very severe liver disease.

Methadone can be a wonderful drug for heroin addicts. Some can stay safely on it long term.
Some may be detoxed - but the dose has to be decreased very very slowly. Often, doctors fail to respect methadone and the addict's disease, and detox them way too fast - then it is very painful to kick !

Society does not look kindly on us addicts. They are disrespected, county methadone clinics are suddenly closed leaving 50 addicts out on the street !! I saw it happen !
One time I was proud - when one of the other closed clinics re-opened I "came to the rescue and got people back on their doses in a hurry ! They were very grateful !

Methadone is more addicting than heroin.
I am in favor of a methadone forum.
I saw methadone help a great many people.


--------------------
Blessings,
Dr. Irab
retired psychiatrist
freebaser of cocaine for 2 years +alcohol
addict/alcoholic
c/s 12 yrs thru 12 step.
Former Medical Director:
Methadone Maintenance Clinic.
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Posted: October 12, 2011, 10:02 PM


Posts: 8683
Joined: April 24, 2007



This post sounds very, very different from earlier ones, irab. Thank you for sharing your story on Cocaine.

Peace ~ MomNMore

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You will not change what you are willing to tolerate.

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Posted: October 12, 2011, 10:04 PM


Posts: 267
Joined: September 22, 2011



NOTHING CONTAINED IN MY POSTS , MUST NOT BE TAKEN TO BE, THE PRACTICE OF MEDICINE, INCLUDING PSYCHOLOGY, PSYCHIATRY, OR PSYCHOTHERAPY, OR PROVIDING HEALTH CARE ADVICE OR INSTRUCTION FOR DIAGNOSIS OR TREATMENT.

--------------------
Blessings,
Dr. Irab
retired psychiatrist
freebaser of cocaine for 2 years +alcohol
addict/alcoholic
c/s 12 yrs thru 12 step.
Former Medical Director:
Methadone Maintenance Clinic.
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Posted: October 12, 2011, 11:31 PM


Posts: 2606
Joined: August 18, 2005



A disclaimer - and a friggin resume- -sheez- -on your posts and sig - -- now Ive seen it all

I ve been on this board for 6 or 7 yrs ,and Ive never seen such justified hostitility.- - Im on other boards with doctors, nurses, mdone adiminstaters, and patients- -and Ive yet to see people respond like they have to this guy,

To just throw out unsolilicated advise , and never needing any yourself - -is amazing.

Many doctors fall into the same role you have which is sort of a "god" complex- Thinking that even though you are an addict like the rest- -you are somehow a better garden variety,
You owned weight loss klinics you say> so you had no need to do the unimaginable acts that many addicts had to to feed thier habit- - you had plenty of dough thru this "cash cow"-

By the way , Im beginning to think that you like all the attention , negitive as it is- because its the only kind you get, and yet you have the warped idea, that the people here all need your support-
- Hell, you certainly dont need ours as you never once asked ant one of about the trials and tribulations of our addictions- - You simply qoute XA, repeat that your being percecuted, and offer blessings

Well Doc, I see the mods closing down many threads for the simple reason that you cause more outrage by posting, than help-
- It may help you as you navagate the waters of your own addiction, but your arrogance and the "ask me anything, I know it all" attitude will continue to anger the "regular" addicts on this board.
In my 25 yrs on MMT Ive noticed it is usually the doctors who know the least- but who profit the most- -just saying,,,, if the shoe fits

This post has been edited by jackofhartzz on October 12, 2011, 11:32 PM

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"The Edge... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who really know where it is are the ones who have gone over."
— Hunter S. Thompson[COLOR=blue]
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Posted: October 13, 2011, 1:43 AM


Posts: 2616
Joined: January 4, 2008



ya know...I was feeling really bad about coming here latley because of this silly insanity and then I went over to the PP board for awhile and started reading a thread where people were remembering their own crazies on thier board and I started to laugh..and now Im like...no, this has been my home now for over 3 years and I surely would miss it...I dont like this and I dont like what this crazy doc person has said about all of us nor all his silly information about methadone...but...ya know what ?...I wont let him make me feel like this board isnt a good place anymore...let him rant...we all know he's a nut and his advice is just silly...ignore him...and Dannygirl...Welcome and I hope you will stay...Ive never seen this before here and I think most of us are a little frustrated ...we have tried hard to get the mods to put in a methadone section and now all the hard work has turned into some weird flame...forgive us if we all have been a bit riled up...

Ive been on methadone now for 3 and a half years...it saved my life...and though i have wanted off of it for the last year Ive not been able to get past the very low numbers...got down to a .04..Im out here in a backwater town across the pond and have to deal with a man much like this one who is making us all angry...it just was the wrong time for him to decide to come here , at least for me...I dont want to have to fight here as well as out here...

I wanted to say something flippant to the doc, like what was he more proud of in his signature block since he seems to be very proud of it...but in the end i think the best we can do is laugh ..or ignore him until he either decides to leave or he gets real...or maybe if were really lucky he will get banned...but dont let him destroy our board...he's not worth it...misinformation or not..

and M&M...yes he can say what he likes but it has been derogatory and insulting to heroin addicts as well as methadone patients...not even counting the misinformation...and we responded as those who have been insulted will naturally do..we don't have to tolerate insults...but...your right...we can also laugh and ignore him and hope he will decide to go away when none of us take him seriously or listen to him anymore...

Con

This post has been edited by constantine on October 13, 2011, 1:49 AM
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Posted: October 13, 2011, 8:38 AM


Posts: 267
Joined: September 22, 2011



I have been respectful and kind to the addicts I treated with methadone. They "loved me"
I Like this board and do not want to destroy it - I want to contribute to it -to help people out.
I was a lying manipulative low life when I was using. My story is in cocaine under acceptance of doc.

I try to treat all addicts , as I am one, with respect and dignity. I am one of you !
I have sponsored many thru the years.

I wish all Blessings in their recovery journey !


--------------------
Blessings,
Dr. Irab
retired psychiatrist
freebaser of cocaine for 2 years +alcohol
addict/alcoholic
c/s 12 yrs thru 12 step.
Former Medical Director:
Methadone Maintenance Clinic.
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Posted: October 13, 2011, 12:10 PM


Posts: 20396
Joined: February 12, 2004



Maybe there's a language barrier going on here? We aren't understanding what Irab is trying to write or his style of writing? I'm willing to give it a chance here as long as no one is insulted or demeaned. So kids, lets give in kind. If it bothers you, ignore and post about something else, don't respond. MNM's got a point and one that I need to remember having just defended someone's right to post on another board...shame on me.

Irab..tone it down a bit. Make sure your info is correct, being a dr, what you say could be dangerous to a newbie. We don't care about your credentials. We've all got our own. When it comes to this disease, you won't find a group of people anywhere, that gets it like we do. But, we're always open to learning and sharing more. We can learn from eachother. I would like to learn from you, I just don't want to hear about what a great doctor you were..is a shrink a dr? Anyway..welcome to the board.

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I used Drugs to forget, I got clean to remember.
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Posted: October 14, 2011, 7:44 AM


Posts: 125
Joined: June 27, 2011



Ok
I started this topic and did not understand when I read under the subject about our "beloved" doctor what the fuss was about but now I do and sorry doc but your posts depresses me.

Jack, Granny, Con and everybody else thanks for clearing everything up for me.
My son is doing GREAT on methadone and momnmore you are spot on as normal. My son's liver problems is because of the heavy dosage of medication for his bipolar/pshycosis/epilepsy.
But the methadone and medicine seems to mix fine together and I have never seen him so normal and functionable. He also can not work because of his mental state and he is now looking for a job and feel up to it.

THank you granny we will try that methadone test.

Luv ye all.

Doc I always say if 3 or more agree and I am only one I am wrong. Just a thought.
Please only post if its something possitive that will help us I was confused and sad and these peoples geniune and know what they talk about advise has light up my life.

God bless


Priscilla




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Posted: October 25, 2011, 1:11 PM


Posts: 1906
Joined: October 23, 2011



Hello everyone, I'm pretty new here.... my name is Bob and I'm an alcoholic.

I am 67 years old and have been sober since 1989, not bragging.. just stating a fact. That's what I need in my recovery... honest facts..
I will start by saying that I can identify with postings in all the threads as I don't see much difference between the drugs of choice, except price and delivery method into our bodies. I had the opportunity/privilege to begin my recovery in a Recovery Home operated by an old Priest. There were 200 of us in the Home and we were quite a mix of characters (5 people in my group had never drank/used but they had the thinking defects just like me. The 200 people were Ministers, Doctors, Engineers, Business Owners, Electronics Technicians (me), Tradesmen, Laborers, Thieves, Bank Robbers, Rapists, Child Molesters and 3 Murders. The old Priest called us all "Alcoholics" !!
We all had the same sickness and we all needed the same medicine... The 12 Steps. (if you think you are different, then you are in for a hard time ahead and a miserable recovery. Some pain is required but misery is optional). All 200 of us were basically cut from the same cloth and we all handled (mis-handled) life in pretty well the same way. At the end of a rough day, each of us said "F*** this, I'm going to get drunk/high/screwed/casino/strip bar/wasted/leave town/kill the son-of-a-b****/ etc.. and when all that failed we decided that it would be best to kill ourselves !!
Can anyone relate ?? .......
i began to take Valium in the 1970's because my habitual drunkenness was costing me jobs/driver's licenses etc and the Valium "took the edge off' for 15 years along with a couple of beers with them. Could have been Valium, could have been Pot, could have been any number of drugs along with the alcohol. My Dr, prescribed Valium... I took them..... and they worked.
I have not had a drink or a drug since 1989, my sobriety is founded on that fact, and that's my story (a small piece of it).

The main reason I wanted to post here right now is to remind us all about the 12th Step "principals before personalities" and "The message is the important thing, not the messenger".
I first met Dr Ira at another forum and was somewhat put off by his seeming "in my face" "telling me what my problem is" "to the point" posts. I put aside my alcoholic "who the hell do you think you are/F him/I'm not going to listen to this crap" knee-jerk reaction that has always managed to screw me in the end .... and I sent him a Private Message (I don't believe we can do that on this board but there are ways of working around it if we desire) pretty well telling him what I thought. We talked a bit and exchanged email addresses and have kept in touch regularly for the last month. I FOUND A FRIEND WHERE I THOUGHT WAS AN ENEMY.

I was a suicidal, hopeless drunk in 1989 and I prayed to GOD for relief from my iNSANITY.
I begged for a Psychiatrist to help me and my prayers were answered in 2011... (see, prayers are answered)

Let me ask anyone on this forum if they have ever thought to themselves "God, I'm crazy and I need a Doctor" ??!! Well..... this may be your lucky day too, if you are open to it .

Please... don't refuse to take the very medicine that can help you because you don't like the Doctor's tone of voice. That is the ultimate alcoholic/addict thinking "I'll show you, I'll f**k me !!"
Ira is probably the most qualified professional that most of us will ever come in contact with, a gift dropped in our lap for free, and many of us ridicule his attempts to help. Why don't YOU ask him if YOU can talk to him one-on-one... might just be your lucky day as well.
More than one person who was only trying to help has been nailed to the cross...... you can pick your hammer up if you want (it's your choice) but I put my hammer down and tried to get the message.

No offense or disrespect intended to anyone. I will continue on my road to recovery whether you like me or not.
They say "opportunity only knocks once". Today I try to pay attention so I can open the door to my own recovery.
Thank you for your time. I wish you all the best life possible... and it is possible.

Bob R

--------------------
Serenity Prayer
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.


Free copy of AA's Big Book on-line: http://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/alcoh...olics-anonymous

Free copy of NA's Big Book on-line:
Copy & Paste coastalcarolinaarea.org/literature/books/b_t.pdf


AA's HOW IT WORKS:
Copy & paste www.aa.org/assets/en_US/p-10_howitworks.pdf


NA's HOW IT WORKS:
http://www.na.org/admin/include/spa...0it%20Works.pdf


----------------------------------------------------------------

--- driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity.

---there are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

... I need AA more than it needs me.

--- I fight recovery tooth and nail....
I'm not used to being sane, it just doesn't seem natural.


...... According to the great spiritual teachers, ignorance does not result from what we don’t know; ignorance results from what we think we do know.

---Some think that 2+2=5 and believe it.
Some know that 2+2=4 and can't stand it.


--- I didn't have a very happy childhood
but I sure am having a long one !


---Dry since 1989
working daily on getting/staying SOBER.


---If you want to drink, that's your business
...If you want to quit, that's AA's business.


... Tell me, I'll forget;
... Show me, I'll remember;
... Engage me, I'll understand.


---Most problems are psychological.
Most solutions are spiritual .


"If we try to change our ego with the help of our ego, we only have a better-disguised ego."
--Richard Rohr


WWBWD (What Would Bill W. Do)
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Posted: October 25, 2011, 2:51 PM


Posts: 2616
Joined: January 4, 2008



I so know I shouldn't even reply to this...I so know how this isn't worth it and i so know I don't need to do this...BUT..on the other hand....if I don't reply then I will feel as if I haven't defended all the good people here who have taken the time to reply and have worked so hard to get a methadone section in...SO...

The "message" helps PB when its informed...telling people about methadone and heroin when he has never been on either...is like me telling you how it was when you were drinking when i have no idea whats its like to drink.... addiction may be the same in its base but it is varied in its form...we have all asked him to refrain please on commenting about methadone and heroin...we have asked him to please stick with his experiences as he knows it as a recovering addict...not as a doctor of methadone or heroin...perpetuating myths and misinformation is not carrying a message of God...its carrying a message of fear...and your not all that much older than some of us ....you may be in your sobriety ...but not in age...so that doesn't fly...i respect anyone who has something to give and something to want to contribute...but i do not respect anyone who comes here and signs on and off with his signature block and aspirin bottle warnings...my respect is earned...not given automatically because of title or age...and i do NOT want to fight or get tangled up in this kind of debate anymore about our Mr. Irab poster...this was a methadone thread for those on it and for those thinking about going on it or getting off of it...not a thread about or for your friend...

most respectfully
Constantine

This post has been edited by constantine on October 25, 2011, 2:54 PM
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Posted: October 25, 2011, 3:23 PM


Posts: 6750
Joined: September 15, 2005



Qualified Professional?

WTF does that mean sir? A gift dropped on my lap? That's funny sir--


Hey Con whats shakin?

Cant complain took 2 walks instead of one as its one of those Florida days

Take care Con--Jeff

--------------------
It is Just Not worth it.

"Inside every older person is a younger person
wondering what the puck happened."

One Day At A Time
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Posted: October 25, 2011, 11:51 PM


Posts: 2616
Joined: January 4, 2008



is it still that nice out in Florida ??...hell...its 30 degrees here with frost on the pumpkins !!..
good to hear from you jeff :)

Con
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