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Message Board > Families / Partners of Addicts > Crisis Update


Posted by: NyToFlorida February 9, 2019, 9:58 PM
Update - still in crisis. son is still denying drug use, still spending pay check. I did tell him 2 weeks ago that he needs to give me $300 per paycheck, or leave the house. (it still leaves him with too much) Last paycheck he did give it to me, but spent the rest by sunday. now broke for 2 weeks. 100 I paid payment on 2 cred cards, $200 I held to give him during 2nd week before paycheck. mid week he gave me a story - wanted a little more $. next day a little more. needs gas... 200 is gone still have a week to go before the paycheck.

we have been suggesting he go to hospital rehab for a few weeks, detox..... he wont hear of it - his persistent thoughts are 'worse when he is sober' … we suggest correct dr, etc. he says no. they don't help. he says the 'medication he takes is the only thing that helps' (kolonopin I think)

we keep saying he cant live here. we cant live like this. he has been mostly calm - but there was 2 days he was angry, probably craving, suicidal, this is the part I can not stand. not knowing what is going to happen. not wanting to give in to anything, but being put on the spot and would rather he leave the house than deal with his nagging behavior.

we talked today, he was calm and dad was calm. he seems to understand everything we say, and has a little remorse.... but then got up, got the computer, and left. came back hours later, showered and went out. I think we are on a lie, lie, repeat cycle. idk if anything sunk in. we will keep at it. hopefully he will leave or go to detox. it comes down to those two choices. we have done everything else.

today is more calm, he pawned computer, has money to take a girl out (lie?), he is out and I can rest. I don't even care about computer anymore.

I am reading my post as if it was someone else's. I don't think he has any intension of changing. he just needed money to get 'meds' for the week. then will get paycheck, more self medicating..... tax return, more 'medication'.

when he went out he said he would not drink and drive. I forgot to tell him not to self medicate and drive.... oh, wait, the last truck wreck he said he would not be driving that night.

OK - I Failed ! !! - I give up !! Take me out of this game, I quit!

my husband and I just want to be alone. we spent the day in different parts of the house bc if we are together we talk about it and husband gets more and more angry - frustrated.

the financial bleeding is too much. take take take.....

we know he is mostly lying. we just want peace and give in bc we hope he will decide to 'do the right thing'.... it is true the more we talk, he does hear a little. maybe we have to keep talking even if we don't think he is hearing.

I feel like there's 4 people living here, mom, dad, son and addiction.

sorry for venting so much. the drama continues. I could read back in my past 6 months of posting and have probably said the same stuff. we are recognizing this, just cant figure out what to do. I want to point him in right direction so we can get him out.












Posted by: mtnmom February 9, 2019, 10:51 PM
So sorry NY2FL..... you are not wrong for wanting YOUR life back, for wanting to protect your own sanity & your own future.

Posted by: NyToFlorida February 9, 2019, 11:27 PM
thanks - I think the financial bleed is the worst part of it. It has also sucked the life out of us. we have no room to think of happier things. we keep thinking of things like - can we sell house, buy an RV and leave? some day we will be on a beach alone... these are the thoughts that get me thru the days. but decisions we are not prepared to make.

I feel like others who have gone thru decades of this. most have done what we have done, reaching our breaking point over and over. If I knew years ago this would still be going on..... I just did not believe it would...

what a learning process. knowing what our family has gone thru makes me firm in giving advice to others, but none of my advice helps me. I suppose it does to some extent. there have been small improvements, but not really enough. yet keep hoping we will find something to fix it.

how can we get him out of the house - my husband wants me to stop buying food. It will just make everyone angry. I don't think ice cream or chips is the enemy here.

as it is I feel like the only dinner hunter gatherer.... every day almost in tears as to what to make or buy for dinner. while the two of them sit and wait for me. I cant prepare something nice, that would be too good and make son want to stay (husband's thoughts)

husband is resentful of feeding son. decides that he does not want to make dinner bc he does not want to feed son. maybe husband thinks food is a reward and does not want to reward him.
but he spends hundreds on fixing the car... yes we want him to go to work, save his $$ and leave.

thanks for listening!

Posted by: #momfail February 10, 2019, 2:30 AM
I don't have any advice, but just want you to know I'm listening and I would have done all the same things. Hard to be the peacekeeper of the home. Calgon, take me away ...

Posted by: Sallyanna February 10, 2019, 5:06 AM
It's so hard NTF ....It really is. I couldn't kick out my daughter either until she left on her own accord either to detox or to get her own place I don't even remember so much has happened since then. Then when they're out we worry about them and we get the phone calls of crisis and statements we don't care about them or we've abandoned them. Its a parent's worst nightmare addiction is...

Posted by: sad eyes February 10, 2019, 8:25 AM
sorry for all you and hubby are going through, I am not very good at the advice thing either, but always read people's posts, not sure what is best for my own son, so how can I offer advice to someone else, only thing I can say is you have to look after yourselves, slowly I am getting there with it, went away this weekend ime not really one for the movies but saw a really good movie" Ben is back" ( addict story but so real what we as parents can all relate to, very powerful it was, I did think I wonder how many parents of addicts are in that cinema feeling the same as me, crying and sometimes to close to home it was, came home earlier, ( other son and wife and bubs staying at mine ATM, he was asking about my weekend, like you do, normal conversation, I thought isent --- going to ask how I went, did I enjoy myself, he did in end but nothing there, sometimes I just feel it's awkward!! Anyway would recommend the movie, ps my son gives me money nearly every week, but dosent save anything, he earns a bit??? Where does it go??? Night all

Posted by: sad eyes February 10, 2019, 8:27 AM
Reading back on my post when I say he earns a bit, meaning he does quite well and know he earns a good wage

Posted by: BugginMe February 10, 2019, 9:49 AM
I have no good advice but just wanted to say my son loves to get klonopin. Some doctors will not prescribe it. I think they just trade in one drug for something else the doctors gives them legally. I am not sure taking that medication helps them any.

Just a thought ... if you are ready to downsize you could put your house up for sale. Ask your son where and when he plans to move because your new place is going to be too small for all of you. Not ideal solution but could work. He won’t like living in a small place with you right up in his business. Make him sleep on the living room couch, that should speed things up a bit. ;) Maybe start cleaning stuff out and putting things in boxes but not put your house up for sale. You could use his room to stack the boxes. Leave him only enough room for his bed. He might get uncomfortable enough to move.

Posted by: NyToFlorida February 10, 2019, 10:42 AM
buggs - yes we have been talking to him openly about it. that we cant live like this and we want to downsize to save on taxes, etc. he understand and says his plan is to save $$ and move out. He says he hates living here. we say we do too. but off he goes chasing the $$ and the drugs.

Yesterday, we bought into what he was saying, for about an hour. I think because the mind just wants a break. by a few hours later we realized he isn't going to change. he does not show any signs of a person wanting to change anything.

the discussion about computer - he wanted $$ for the next week so he does not have to ask me for $$. at this point we don't care about his computer. it felt like a relief if I don't have to babysit his money and gas tank all week. another band-aid. just for this week. it was a calm conversation. OK if that's what he wants...

he will buy it back at pay check....or maybe he wont. there goes the $$ again.

Unbelievable that the judgement is so clouded and skeu'd that he does not see the illogic of it all.

I have been starting to box things up. talking about it. he does not notice. he does not care.

Posted by: NyToFlorida February 10, 2019, 10:54 AM
Sallyanne - yes when they are out we worry. I feel like I will worry less than I did a few years ago. been thru so much and know there is nothing more I can do.

the phone calls of crisis... last weekend I was at work. he was home alone. had a cashed paycheck but car was in shop. he took a cab to my workplace and asked to borrow car - made up a bunch of reasons - going to grocery store, going to bank to clear up balance ( used this story 3 times) I gave up the car - what else to do... he went did his drugs errands (I think) then when I got off work asked me to drive him to friends house, where he said he had gone.... I said he should have taken cab to the friends house, not to my work, and then drive there and then drive back and forth... and he was under influence of something, but denying it. I told him not to come home. he called next morning for me to pick him up.

this week got car back, zoom - out immediately. had some cash. next day ran out of gas. he is in so deep he cant put gas in the car. we have been at this point before... each day I see the pattern more clearly.

he is constantly on empty and without cigs - only days after getting a paycheck.

Now our life consists of nagging to go to a treatment center. which he says is the worst place for him bc the other people are worse than he is.

this week will be more crisis.


this is not going to end.



Posted by: NyToFlorida February 10, 2019, 11:02 AM
sadeyes - we would love to go away for the weekend. we could easily do so. BUT we went away for a week after the holidays and there was subtle but definite indications of drug use at our house. our son cleans up very well. one would not notice a thing, but I found little clues and a clean up list he wrote.

Fear is that 'something' will happen. especially with cooking and falling asleep, leaving a burner on, etc. winter time, normal care of house could be overlooked. something left open etc... accidents, car left somewhere.... we cant predict what the crisis will be while we are away.

my husband also rants about this. he wants to visit our daughter. he has a week vacation coming up. he cant stand that this addiction controls us. and he is right, we should not be living like this. as we have said it is like being hostage.

guess we have our work cut out this week. only option - get him to treatment or out of house. so tired of talking about it, thinking about it. reading about it, writing about it., pretending its OK so I can manage to get thru a work day.


about moving - It is just overwhelming to think about boxing stuff up, selling stuff, etc. We did do a pretty good clean out a few years ago. now time to go thru it again. time to make the tough choices to throw away sentimental stuff. or things that we hold on to but don't really need.

addiction is so time consuming. that is where we loose ourselves.








Posted by: Sallyanna February 10, 2019, 11:10 AM
Yes NTF it's a cycle which repeats over and over again. I agree, even though I worry about my daughter it's better having her out of the house. Living with them (at least living with my daughter) was traumatizing never knew what to expect and the coming and going of all hours, maybe even days. Seeing them 'messed up' and listening to their illogical reasoning. I couldn't do it anymore and function. When she left, I decided and I told her she could never live with me again.

Posted by: duchesschama February 10, 2019, 3:01 PM
NY--
I am so sorry to hear he is off the tracks once again. I thought he was finally turning the corner but as you well know the odds of recovery for our addicts is slim.

I am going to be frank about this, but I think it is time to save you and your husband before your son's addiction implodes and wrecks what you and husband have left. You said your son has financially affected you and you need to change this ASAP! Unfortunately, it isn't easy but so necessary! If you don't you will find yourself with nothing left for you as you age and our addicts are certainly in no position to care for us let alone themselves!

Why should he change when you provide food, shelter, gas, monitor his credit payments, etc. You have tried letting him live with you and managing his affairs while he just goes about his life doing what he wants, when he wants, and how he wants. In the meantime, the only lives that are changing are yours and your husbands. If you allow this scenario to continue, he will destroy your lives and he will still be an addict.

Nothing you have done has given any positive or lasting results ( and you have done and tried and tried and tried) ! The time for change is now before you spend any more of your life trying to "fix" him! You can't--as much as we all would love to!

As hard as it is you and husband need to set up a plan to "evict " him. Pack his stuff and put by the front door. Tell him you will no longer be a victim in this scenario that is helping no one. Set a move out by date and stick to it. If he refuses change the locks. If he enters afterward or breaks in --call the police.

I know this isn't what you want to hear but it is going to be the only thing you can do to save your sanity, well-being, health, finances, and marriage.

I am praying you can come to grips with the reality of the situation. We have all walked in your shoes but if you reread the past posts, you can see the only ones that have been able to move on with their lives are the parents that cut their addicts loose and stuck to it!

You will always care, worry, and love them but you need to take care of you. You have been a good parent and tried all options so now you need plan B!

((((BIG hugs))))--Lori

Posted by: Parenting2 February 10, 2019, 5:42 PM
NY,

I’m speaking from the bottom of my heart when I say this... This man is mentally and financially abusing you. The way you feel and the way you behave are signs of the abuse. Please make a plan, get support and cut him loose. His behavior is way beyond inappropriate and he’s taking advantage of your love for him.

You know I say this with love, as I’ve been in your shoes and continue to have a man (my son) who will abuse my love too.

Hugs to you and yours.

Posted by: mtnmom February 10, 2019, 8:36 PM
We too had to get to a point where we said no more!! It took many years, THOUSANDS of dollars & everything we could to 'HELP" - Nothing helped him, nothing we did ever once helped him so I repeat frequently "I didn't cause it, I can't control it & I can't cure it". He has to choose for himself. And he will never move in with us again. And we have heard it all - car problems, no gas, no money, no job and as of late, nowhere to live, living in a tree fort.... even with THOSE problems, we offered to take him to the ER or crisis center & he refused. So I left it as is, we offered to find him an apartment if he would detox & go to rehab - refused.

BUT, the other night he called my husband & asked for advice - not on anything drug related but about his GF's car. He sounded "normal". Said he would call later & we haven't heard from him in 3 or 4 days....

Posted by: Walkedon February 10, 2019, 10:12 PM
I am so sorry NYto. We have all been there. I actually sold my house.It was the only to get my daughter out.
These addicts will destroy our lives if we let them. We talk to them,they always agree with us. Its their game. It buys them more time so they can get more drugs.
We can't negotiate.

Posted by: NyToFlorida February 10, 2019, 11:25 PM
thanks everyone. I am embarrassed that I have talked the talk for so long, but still have a mess on my hands. In heinsight my posts are kind of the same over and over. I keep thinking there must be improvement just a little more time. at this time I do see the pattern clearly. In 5 months I can see the progression of the addiction. first a beer then more then other stuff then more and more. I believe it has gotten to the 'out of control' point.

I do want to be free of participating in this addiction cycle. We have talked to him. refuses to go anywhere. same old stuff, blah blah blah. each time we talk, yell or scream, he makes it look like there's improvement, good behavior, like walkedon said - he agrees, we get off his back for a few days, while he does what he wants.

I am trying to figure out the escape. I can go to my brother's home for a bit or a few nights here and there - which I may start doing just to be able to relax. I would consider selling the house. It has been my long term plan, not something we can do quickly. my husband does not want to be forced out of our house. I am going to start packing up stuff.

Walked on - I didn't know you sold your primary house. I thought it was a second home. It shows how desperate we are to be free of the drama.

Dutchess- financially, we are still good, but have definitely taken a hit this year. and cant let the financial drain go on. This is why my husband works so much to recoop our losses. and complains about the food. We have taken a closer look our spending - nothing more than normal minimal stuff.

Posted by: Parenting2 February 11, 2019, 8:25 AM
NY, don't be embarrassed, really. We all go through these times. It is our love that keeps us going back, so that is nothing to be ashamed about. We all just do the best we can and keep moving forward.

I forget all of the details, but can you officially evict him? Change the locks, etc.?


Posted by: Walkedon February 11, 2019, 3:43 PM
You are correct,I was not living in the house but it was all I had. We give and give, houses, cars, our peace of mind.
I don't want to own anything.I don't want any possessions that way my addict can't take anything else from me.

Posted by: samegame February 12, 2019, 1:41 AM
Ny, Sorry to hear about the circumstances. Similar here. I too am looking for an escape, suffered and witnessed the financial bleeding an alcoholic/addict can cause. It's all about them and until they actually want to change and not just appease/temporarily get people on their side I'm afraid time will either have them hit a wall/bottom that might change their thinking or that's how they will live out their lives. After a certain point it's not just the chemicals but a way of life they've become accustomed to. Without the desire and motivation to change, not just stop abusing I'm afraid it will be the sos.

This is why keeping yourself and others safe is the priority. Not solving HIS problems and issues.

Hang in there.

Good Luck!

Posted by: NyToFlorida February 12, 2019, 7:22 PM
tonight I drove home from work in the snow. had to go in there was a conference going on and I am the tech person. many others did not go in. I ended up staying the whole day bc the weather was not good enough to drive earlier. sad. thinking about how many years my son has spent getting sicker instead of better. got home, went to bed.

also, when I suggested to my manager that I might take a snow day, he did not say OK. he said... well... idk... (he is not in the office - works from out of state) today, others email him at 2pm - saying - btw we are working from home..... so tired of being taken advantage of...

Posted by: mtnmom February 12, 2019, 7:25 PM
That sucks - I hate it when people hold us to a different standard than everyone else.

Posted by: NyToFlorida February 15, 2019, 8:15 PM
Update - after a month of holy chaos, my son did get paid today and gave me $300 without me asking. we will see what happens next. Life has been very bad here. I have been barely buying food, going to bed after work. mainly bc I had a cold or flu two weeks ago, and needed to pull back on spending. I was dreading his paycheck, prepared for more of the same behavior. time will tell if there will be a lasting change. Only if HE wants to put in the work for recovery. I am prepare to keep my efforts at a minimum. I have gotten to the point where I know there is nothing more I can do that I have not tried already. It is in his hands. When I got home from work he was not here. I assumed he was out spending the paycheck. apparently he was at the bank clearing up some collections on a negative account. nice effort, not getting my hopes up.

Thank you all for listening for the past two years!

Posted by: noott February 16, 2019, 9:25 PM
My mother stopped helping me..now im 1 year clean because she used tough love. Just sayen.

Posted by: YellowBirds February 17, 2019, 1:21 PM
noott - Thank you so much for sharing. This is exactly what I needed to hear.

Posted by: Sallyanna February 17, 2019, 3:36 PM
Me too!

Posted by: NyToFlorida February 17, 2019, 10:42 PM
noott - I know you are correct. idk how to get to that point when he lives with us and asks for 'help' until the next pay check. I do keep trying to push his responsibilities off my plate and on to his. but he is not making it easy. I am open to suggestions. we have been suggesting places and asking him to leave.

History:
2013 knew he was using pain pills. kicked him out at end of year - 2014 he got job in FL - said he would change. didn't. begin of 2015 came back home, got job. 2 months later car accident bc of usage. he went to first rehab 4months in FL , stayed in FL relapsed. 2016 2nd rehab and sober livng, still in FL - 5 months, relapse, end of 2016/2017 -lived 4 months on west coast w family - sober. early 2017 came back home lived w gf in addiction until early 2018 - local hospital detox and 2 week rehab - sober at home, iop, meeting, taking care of himself for 3 months over summer. relapsed 6 months ago.


he has worked thru relapses the whole time except for a few months at each rehab period.
we are not new to this. didn't know it would be so relentless.

Posted by: NyToFlorida February 27, 2019, 11:09 PM
Update. I lost my job near the end of last week. my son had a tax return refund check. he was not home except to sleep. On Monday I left to a family's vacation home in the mountains. no one is here this week. its nice to be alone. I was mentally and physically at a breaking point. I was not too upset about loosing the job. I thought it might be temporary. It gave me the break I needed to get away. I told husband I feel relaxed. he said he does too. son comes home after husband goes to sleep. and husband leaves earlier than son. and I am not in the middle. I am not in the middle of the food situation. I need to gain weight. my husband needs to loose weight. maybe we can do that while apart! This is the best idea I've had all year!

since my son had a tax return check last week and a paycheck this week, idk how soon he will run out of $$. idk how long it will be before he surrenders. goes for treatment. or moves out. or is arrested (I have two clues that something might be going on with the police but I don't know anything)

idk how long I can stay away. my husband said to take as much time as I need. I am spending very little $$. LOL. its true. when 'they' stop hitting your wallet it is surprising how much you can hold on to.

I talked to person at employment agency today. he may have an interview for me later this week.... :( …. ugh.... not so soon!!

I cant pass it up. don't know when or if another will come around!

Posted by: Sallyanna February 27, 2019, 11:31 PM
NTF I'm so happy you were able to get away and it sounds like you are enjoying the peace and quiet. I think you should stay as long as you need to. You deserve it!!!

Posted by: sad eyes February 28, 2019, 2:53 PM
Glad you managed to get away, it does seem to cleanse us in some way, even if it is only for a short time, we should try to do it more often, I can’t wait for this weekend my addict is going away for the weekend, although I say he isn’t really any bother, sometimes when there there,I feel ime wondering all time what he’s up to, any way I’ll close on that

Posted by: MomNMore March 2, 2019, 1:42 AM
NYtoFla ~
You and your son are both getting something out of continuing the dance...we keep doing something as long as there is some sort of payoff for us, however odd that sounds. In hindsight, I got the comfort of knowing I hadn't given up (until I did) and it fed some weird notion I had about what it meant to be a 'good' parent (which was not true).

You are afraid he'll be homeless, or dead, or arrested, or whatever...so you keep on doing anything, everything holding on to the erroneous belief that something YOU do or say will make the difference (it won't).

It IS possible to have a reasonably decent and happy life without constantly catering to your addicted son. It IS possible to step off the merry-go-round AT ANY TIME...at the time of our choosing...it is far easier than you can imagine until you do it, then you'll wonder why you waited so long and chose to deny yourself the life you deserve.

You are enabling him to no good end. Nothing changes if nothing changes. It is possible to love him to death. It is far more likely that he will continue using as long as he has the comfort of a roof and a full refrigerator...you are actually funding his drug use.

Reading your posts and all the activity you are engaged in trying to manage HIS problems with money, with drugs, with everything...you seem to think this is yours to solve, to handle, to deal with...it's not. Offer him the dignity of making his own choices (even if the choices are fundamentally undignified). Don't 'discuss' his moving out, make it happen...Give him a date, take his key, change the locks and tell him you love him and know he can do the next right thing. Period. Say what you mean, mean what you say, but don't say it mean. Be calm and loving in the face of his anger and dismay. LET HIM GO with love.

It's been a looooong time since I was a primary contributor here (2007 - 2013ish I guess), but I have not forgotten my journey or the lessons I learned. It took me 4 years to let go, but once I did we all got well. My daughter still thanks me for telling her she had to go, for not allowing her back after two weeks when she asked, for keeping her out once she was in recovery. Once I accepted that I WAS PART OF THE PROBLEM I understood we could never go back to where we had once been. You are part of a terribly unhealthy dynamic, but you can get yourself well. Once we get well and show them what it can be like to have that life, they often choose the same for themselves. Choose happiness...it's okay...it really is.

Peace ~ MomNMore (M&M)

Posted by: NyToFlorida March 2, 2019, 1:26 PM
MomNmore: Thanks for your response and all of the 'Bump Ups'. My son was in recovery for several months in 2018 and 2017 and 2016 and 2015. He did make more progress than previous attempts regarding continuing meetings and support. once he relapsed we naively thought he could put the breaks on and make a turn around. for the past 4 months we have been doing the watching and waiting, encouraging recovery, sober living, also lots of yelling and 'get out'. watching it wax and wane. In past two months realized this is not going to stop on its own. myself being sandwiched between dysfunction of husband and son. I have realized my own weakness and limitations and have removed myself from the equation.

My husband seems to think I can live at home with son in house and not give into enabling - in the form of cigs, gas, food. How can I live in the house without these things. Husband goes to work early, and works overtime jobs and finds other things to do that keep him out of the house and leaves me holding the responsibility of what is going on in the house.

I lost my job a week ago which gave me the opportunity to leave the house. Husband is at home son comes home to sleep and goes to work. no food is being bought and I am not there to hand out cigs and gas. Son says he is looking for apt or room to rent. This can go on for another few months.

Of course I should not leave my home. but that is what people do when they can no longer live in a dysfunctional environment. I do not want to participate so I took myself out of the game.

I see clearly that my son needs long-term recovery within a support group such as a good sober living environment. Having one foot in and one foot out is not an option.

I need to figure out how to stay away from the house for as long as it takes.


Posted by: Sallyanna March 2, 2019, 8:40 PM
NTF I think you are so aware of what's is happening now. I think your are smart for staying away from them to protect yourself. Sounds like your son is ready to leave soon and then maybe you can return home (if you want to?) I don't know about your husband. He sounds like an avoider then dumps all the responsibility on you which isn't fair IMO. Keep taking good care ❤

Posted by: MomNMore March 2, 2019, 8:59 PM
Certainly you owe me no explanation...I've been periodically following a few folks on here and don't usually comment because you all have your thing going on and I've mostly moved on... don't want to be intrusive, just offering my experience.

I will say one last thing...anytime a parent is staying out because on an addicted adult child, that's a red flag. All 'reasons' to the contrary...YOU are leaving YOUR home to accommodate your son, who is an adult. Addicts are resourceful as he**...if he wanted to be gone, he'd be gone...if he put 1/100 of the effort into getting out on his own as he undoubtedly put into procuring and using drugs, he'd be in his own place by now.

I did at one time tell my husband I understood why he could not put our daughter out on the street, but that I could no longer be part of the sickness, so I would go live at my mom's until he could come to grips with things as they really were. It was not a threat, it was not said in anger...It was merely my truth and what I needed to do. He came around a couple of days later and agreed she could no longer stay. It was ugly, it was sad, it was a very hard moment for him. I handed her a list of housing resources for the homeless and halfway/sober houses for the recovering. She threw it at me and left. Oh well, her choice.

You'll know when you're done....you'll just be done and he'll be gone.

Peace~ M&M

Posted by: Sallyanna March 3, 2019, 3:01 PM
I think it's important to remember we are all in different places. The first rule of psychology is meeting people where they are, as opposed to where they should be. We all have different personality types and temperaments and what may seem seamless for some people may be extremely difficult for others. The first step of change is awareness to what is true and I think NTF now sees the truth of her situation. Its a process and has its ups and downs.

Posted by: Parenting2 March 4, 2019, 10:17 AM
It is a crazy business being the mom of an addict. I still cannot believe all we have been through and where we are. I think the stressful aspect is that we have to save ourselves, without really knowing if our child will come along or dive deeper. So, once we achieve a healthy relationship and healthy boundaries, our child may still chose to go the other way. (Searing heartbreak). And, we have to let them go. (more heartbreak).

I am not sure where I am at the moment. A mixed bag. My son has always been an interesting character (since toddler years), in that you can take EVERYTHING from him, and he will still see it as a game to win. He will not give in, so to speak. When he was a pre-teen, I had all his belongings in my trunk and he still was defiant. To him, he wasn't going to break. Even now, he has literally nothing. And, up to a little while ago, he refused to change anything.

Not that it is everything, but a piece of the pie is definitely the maturing brain. It takes to mid-20s for a male to reach maturity, and drugs makes that wonky. I am seeing some maturity along with some recovery behavior.

He actually said to me yesterday, "I need a job because I have nothing", like he had just joined us in his life. : ) Like this was a serious revelation for him. It is so interesting how he seems to have awoken but he is still like 3 years ago in his thinking. He is discussing things that happened when he began using and working through them now. Which we all know from education, but so strange to witness.

The hardest part for me this month-My son is trying to change and doing better. But, he is grieving his losses-what he has lost from addiction, including how he perceives a lost of his personality and his memory. He even said that I warned him against all of it, and he would not listen. I am listening and trying not to step into the process, his process of grief. Of course, I am worried this pain will drive him back, but I don't have any control over this. And, it is good he is realizing that drugs took these things from him.

I have to celebrate though, as I am able to have conversations with him. I did get seriously tough on boundaries and pushing responsibility back on him, and that helped. But, part of this is really a mystery. I also started really listening (as I am lucky he is able to converse right now). The kid suffers with his own mind and always has and always will. It is his path to manage that, and he has choices to make. THIS is what always kept me in the game, playing with the monkeys. Because he does suffer. I changed my thinking to this last year and have been working on it: He has others avenues besides drugs and alcohol to deal with this. This took my guilt and responsibility away. I told myself that if he choses to use drugs and alcohol, I am OUT (because it is not healthy for anyone).

Another positive is he told me he intentionally has stopped asking for money because he knows it is wrong.

I mean, after so long, you start to see this as a painting in progress rather than a race with clear paths and endings. I guess, I have given up in a good way. I completely accept him the way he is. I guess I see myself more of as an observer and coach, than a controller or a mastermind (failed mastermind-ha). I don't know if that makes sense, but I have stopped the frenetic saving and managing and orchastrating. I see myself as just sitting and watching and listening in my own space.

Peace to you all.

EDIT: ANY PEACE I HAVE IS BECAUSE OF YOU ALL!! You have taught me, and I thank you.

Posted by: BugginMe March 4, 2019, 11:04 AM
I don’t want to be a negative Nellie, but be careful when they share their newfound awareness with you ... don’t end up being manipulated. Them realizing what addiction has cost them and getting on the right road with a job and all that is not always easy for them to accomplish. They have to make a big leap to get from here to there and are sometimes not able to make it. They usually aren’t willing to do what it takes to get there. Then in jumps our desire to help! When they say that they will stop asking us for money, they may just mean that they will go at you from another angle. They might want you to offer money willingly. What will they do or say to get that result? Their suffering is hard to watch and hear. Their trying and failing is hard to watch. When they are trying shouldn’t we help just a little or maybe more if they are really trying .. over and over but not really going anyplace new. Next thing you know nothing has really changed except that you are poorer and your addict has been able to put off the inevitable by getting your help once again. I was once optimistic and supportive but I think it is all a game for them. We are the stabilizing influence in their lives but they need to take over that job at some point. I think it might be different if they are younger. Things could turn around and something could be salvaged. My son is now in his upper 30s and he started at about 13. Changes (and hope) get harder the longer they use.

Posted by: Walkedon March 4, 2019, 11:40 AM
31yr old daughter is trying. This is such a slow process. I have to watch myself That I don't interfere.
I could feel myself wanting to return to the "Fixer." If only I help her get .....insert what ever would fix the immediate problem. Then maybe she can move forward.
Instead of doing that, I checked in with my therapist.
I am so easily manipulated by this kid ,I don't trust my own instincts.
She is doing better. When she starts being demanding.Im learning to back off

Posted by: Parenting2 March 4, 2019, 12:18 PM
Yes, bugginme, I don't think my intent came through in my post. I am not optimistic things will change long term. And, even if they do, he will battle this is whole life. That is what I meant by changing to painting a picture as opposed to a race. He is on his own. I am not giving any more money or resources. He knows this. I am an observer, more or less. What he makes of his life, is on him.

Posted by: samegame March 4, 2019, 4:01 PM
Ny, never apologize for venting or posting. That's what we do here.

That being said I've seen too many parents enable drug or alcohol adult children hoping time and age would change their behavior. 'Well maybe this time' they'll get it, change etc-nope. Until the alkie/addict actually want to change themselves it won't happen. If he had gone to the hospital rehab to detox for you that would've been to appease you to allow him use of the house.

Also most alkies and addicts become good grifters because they constantly need favors and learn how play various people for money, food, shelter etc. They do play the long game/con. If they think they've got your number they'll use it/exploit it. Your son might be not malicious but his drug use has priority and will do anything to facilitate it.

Posted by: NyToFlorida March 5, 2019, 10:28 AM
hello - thanks for the input. I know all of what you are all saying. just as my son can not resist the urge to ask me for $$. I can not resist the urge to give. and say OK, I'm not doing this again. and we both keep doing it. I can see that there is only one choice for him. sober living. I know only he can make that choice and stick to it. In the meantime, I have to make decisions for me. example - if I walk down the street every day and someone punches me in the face every time I pass the same doorway, I need to change my route. I have control over me. I don't have control over whether my son stops by the house when I am home alone. his job is close by so he stops in. something he did all of 2017 - so this is not new. I see where its going. He has gotten his own phone line, off our account. and has rented a room (to be determined if that is true).

So - I have no reason to be optimistic that he will change this pattern of behavior unless he goes all in to sobriety and changes.

The thing that is really upsetting for me is that I am suffering the most. and lost my job. and have to go on interviews. and then starting a new job, again, with so much distraction. I don't want to live it anymore. my enabling is something that is against my values and it makes me feel like a liar and secret keeper. I do not like it and do not want to be that person anymore. so I need to figure out the bigger picture for myself. I hate to spend half my paycheck on an apartment... ugh..

PS - there is a sober living organization in the city my husband work in. I asked him to find out more information. NO, he does not want son near him. does not want his reputation at work to get tarnished. Somehow everyone else can avoid this, and wait for me to fix it.

I guess I have become conditioned to be the problem solver, fixer.

ok, gotta go, shower and pack my stuff before anyone comes home! Maybe I will have another interview today. after 4 hrs sleep, an interview would be perfect!

Posted by: Walkedon March 5, 2019, 10:39 AM
A job interview after 4 hours of sleep would be awesome. you'll be so tired, you will seem the perfect calm canidate.

It's easier to have boundaries and not be the fixer if you actually have physical boundaries. I'm sure you noticed while you were away how much easier it was to say No.

I also find it funny that your husband thinks the people where he works don't know about his son. The world is a very small place.

Posted by: samegame March 5, 2019, 11:53 AM
Ny, take of yourself first. You can't even help your son if you wanted to if things get too bad for you. Stay strong. Along with rest work on fitness and use some of that frustration for motivation-don't over do it.

Your son is an adult and does not have to worry about the traditional suburban life 2.4 kids, house, picket fence, dog etc. Sadly survival and learning survival skills needed for the common daily tasks and issues are his priority. He sounds like he can survive at minimal levels which is good for now.

I understand the urge to give. I've seen parents give their children money for years thinking it was going towards a house, marriage etc. It went to recreational activities among other things. To top it off I found out when the parents passed the adult alkie child complained bitterly they were left very little inheritance. The parents had taken out 10s of thousands of unrepaid loans for their kid and spent their final decades paying that debt off.

Stay safe, stay sane

Posted by: Sallyanna March 6, 2019, 12:42 AM
Yes NTF keep taking good care of yourself. You deserve it.

Posted by: Parenting2 March 6, 2019, 6:36 PM
NY, so sorry to hear this. As others have said, please take good care of yourself. I know first hand the grief and sorrow that goes with this.

Posted by: lolleedee March 8, 2019, 7:10 AM
Hey, NY! Please know that what I am going to say is from a place of love AND from the place of longer term recovery!

I am also a parent, so I know how gut-wrenching a suffering child can be. I also was the beneficiary of some well done tough, but supportive love that was instrumental in my recovery.

You asked how you can get out of it and it is much easier than you think! First, stay out of his finances! Do not check his balance, pay his billsssssss, buy him ciggs(he is almost 30...time to let him fund his own lung cancer!) If he asks for money, the answer is nnnnnnno. You do not owe him an explaination. I learned in early recovery that "NO" is explaination and reason enough! I do not remember if the 300.00 is for rent. If it is, make up a lease that spells the exact day of month it is due and consequences if it isn't paid. When my family did this to me, it was due on the first of the month. If I did not pay (they would not ask...my responsibility to do it) then I had a five day grace period and that came with a 50 dollar late fee. If it was not paid then, my belongings would be on the porch and locks would be changed. I can't tell you how many times I was late and the day came where I tested them and came home to all my stuff outside and locks changed. I caused a scene and the police escorted me off the property!

It is insane that because of his addiction you are not keeping food in the house! Why should you suffer more than the active addict? If you do not want to feed him, put a clause in the lease that he is responsible for buying all his food and he is not to touch yours. I would tell him to keep his stuff in his room..he can even buy a small fridge.

When he comes to you saying he has no gas to get to work, tell him you are sure he will figure it out. Do not give him money! Will he lose his job? Maybe. You always bailing him out is only delaying his personal growth. Any time you do something for an addict they should be doing for themselves you stunt their growth and learning process. It's hard, but try to remember that everything you are doing for him, is really to make yourself feel better in some way. It may feel like you are giving up if you stop, but it is simply allowing him to lead his own life.

Do not let one more day go by where you base your happiness and life decisions on what he is doing. Teaching and loving our children as they are growing up is our job...so is letting them go!

Posted by: Sallyanna March 9, 2019, 2:57 PM
Great post loleedee. It's so helpful to have your perspective. Were you ever homeless and how long were you in active addiction? If you don't mind sharing.

Posted by: NyToFlorida March 9, 2019, 7:43 PM
Hi Lollee, I know all of what you are saying. I was not able to put that in place while living in the same household. regarding suffering and emotional stuff - I have been living it for so long, I have come to terms with it. whether we do the most or the least, our son stays on his path. we could not live it any longer.

yes, to the financial stuff - I was trying to do what you said. I told him he had to give me 300 per paycheck to be allowed to live in our house for 2 weeks. pay me, have room for two weeks. dont pay me, leave for two weeks. after two paychecks, I realized it was not going to work. I became a money holder - irrational. I became tied to him and his actions because of it. not what I intended. I intended it to help him be responsible for paying something - and hoped that would catch on and grow bc he was saying he wanted to start paying is cred card and pay off a loan. (saying the right things but not following thru)

I am not paying his bills. I told him in Jan. I am no longer paying his $25 cred card - which I was doing bc I wanted to, until he was able to pay it again. I don't care if he does not pay it. he has been thru that before. It is not in my name. he got on his own phone account 2 weeks ago and has left our home and rented a room - as of mar 1st. this happened at the same time that I lost my job and left the house. we had been telling him for a month he had to leave and get off our phone account.

personal growth - yes - that is why I had to break the enabling cycle. before now, husband and I kept thinking if we show him the right way, he will follow. every month we thought he would 'get it' . also - in order to be present in our own lives, we had to ignore his life to a certain extent... ignoring bc one would rather put their energy into other family, friends, and things to do, instead of the addict is not enabling or denial. It is us trying to have the life w want in spite of what our son brings to the table. Unfortunately, this does not work well when everyone is living in the same house and every move or thought is filtered thru many scenarios....

I had to make it simple. I am the enabler, hurting the possibility of my son being in recovery, despite the fact that I have given him the most direction for recovery support and been in the trenches with him - he knows this - he practically called me his hero last summer when he was sober and wanted to get a tattoo to honor me. I told him to wait a year.

I have conditioned myself to be the fixer for many years. Even my job is a fixer type of job. If he stopped by and ask for gas, I can not say no. there is no emotional reason attached to that. I am not suffering from grief, I dont feel like I am giving up, it does not make me feel better, it makes me feel worse. it makes me feel sad for him.

the reason I have left my house - to encourage my son's personal growth. maybe this will set the switch that is needed. in the past he knows if he waits long enough, mom will be home and give the gas money.

It was too insane living at home. example - husband who wants to be on a diet, tells me not to buy food so son wont be so comfortable. I have lost 15 lbs - I need food - no I can not do that. It was making a conflict in my head. Telling me I am wrong to buy food, wrong to feed myself, bc someone else might eat the food. crazy.

If I did not want to get 'cornered' home alone - and be asked for gas money, I would have to leave for work an hour earlier than I needed to and come home late or stay in my room or leave the house when he came home - if he came home - always on edge, could not concentrate

Cigs - I smoke but have been trying to quit for a while. I can quit for a week or two at a time. I got down to two packs a week. I do not want to spend more than that. that is my budget. in feb. when son was running out of $ faster, I was buying a pack a day and splitting w him . after a few weeks of that - I was determined - If my budget is $20 per week, why am I spending $70 per week. $200 per month over my budget. This - and the other nickel and dimes (gas and food) are going to start impacting me financially.

conclusion - me and son can not be around each other. If he was not leaving - and it is easy for him to stop by the house on way to work. I needed to leave in order to save the rest of us.

Husband is also doing better - we arent talking about it constantly. all of us are accountable for ourselves. no 3 way drama. it is best that my son know I am not there to be the safety net. Maybe that was the hook - I know he depended on me. I did not want to let him down.

he has not contacted me in any way. I last saw him a week ago he said I 'disappeared' and he didnt know where I went. (he didn't ask) I said it is best for everyone - the family dynamic was getting too crazy for all of us.

maybe some day he will thank me for this. I dont think he is angry with me. he does want to be independent and we have given him the tools, guidance, support, directions. he had a good sober support system in place over the summer. I know he can navigate back to that if he chooses to. I had to get out of his way.

I have read and watched many recovery stories. the long term success is based on doing what you need to do and staying sober 100%. my son was not at this point. even when he was sober, it looked like he had reservations. he did not talk as though he was committed to long term recovery. when he relapsed we thought he would bounce back. he didnt.
From these stories I also see that relapses can go on and on for years. we have already spent years on this. it is time to stop.

I am not emotional over being away from my house. I have several places to go to. I was not functioning well at my house anyway. I do feel a little bad that the cats miss me.

for the past months or years, my actions were not my own. my actions were reactions to the actions of others. I do not want to be that puppet. I have been writing and venting and asking - how do I accomplish - my goals - while addiction is living in my house. I finally found the answer - I don't.

I feel empowered.

Posted by: Sallyanna March 9, 2019, 8:32 PM
Good for you NTF!!! You've come a long way. Keep taking good care of yourself!!

Posted by: Walkedon March 9, 2019, 9:16 PM
Stay strong. It's so hard to see the forest for the trees. I'm glad you've been able to step back and get a clearer view.


Posted by: #momfail March 9, 2019, 11:16 PM
NYTF, may 2019 be the year of YOU!

Posted by: lolleedee March 10, 2019, 4:32 AM
NY....I just wanted to say that I think you are an incredibly strong woman! You may not see it, but I sure can! I also just wanted to clarify that when I mentioned personal growth and your son learning from his mistakes and that enabling an addict just allows the addict to continue doing what they want...I just wanted to stress that you are not responsible for his addiction. Even if you were the most enabling parent on the planet, the responsibility lies with the addict only!!!!

There is a ton of talk in the addiction field about enabling and I think what they fail to teach is that not enabling is really, first and foremost, self care and sanity for the addicts family!

Not enabling doesn't guarantee the addict will turn the corner and miraculously get sober! It may, like it did with me, open the addicts mind to the possibility of recovery. When my family completely stopped the addiction dance with me, I still tried to drag them back! Eventually, (a year and change) it hit me like a ton of bricks that I was the reason my life was in the toilet. It took me awhile to pick up the shovel and start digging my way out...and most days in the beginning felt like I was trying to dig with a teaspoon!!!

My family didn't actually stop enabling me to help me..They did it so they didn't wind up in a padded room dressed in a straight jacket!!! Even though I was still in active addiction and refused anything and everything that was suggested, I was observing all these changes in the people around me and, one day, it dawned on me that everyone, except me, was busy with living. I was observing others who were successful and it dawned on me that those people who were successful were living a very different life than I was. I was busy using and blaming the s*** show my life has become on everyone but myself.

I eventually decided that I wanted something different and that is where recovery began. I think before any addict can recover, they have to have that deep soul realization that they alone are responsible for the mess....and the clean-up!!!!

I hope my last post didn't come across as judgemental because it wasn't meant to be! This post for very long winded and off track, so I'm going to sum up quickly (I just heard the collective groan of the board saying well it's about time!!! Lol!

A person with addiction is STILL responsible for everything they do! Addiction can't be used as an excuse for bad behavior or as a scapegoat for not being responsible. Not enabling is to save yourself from the madness. Will not enabling help facilitate recovery? Maybe, maybe not. It will, however, provide an opportunity for the addict to watch and learn and, most importantly, it will save your sanity so that you do not become a hostage in someone else's crisis!

I am so sorry you are dealing with so much! Sending a huge cyber hug your way!!!! Always remember that you are stronger than you think!!!!

Posted by: Sallyanna March 10, 2019, 10:17 AM
Really great post loleedee, thank you!

Posted by: NyToFlorida March 10, 2019, 1:31 PM
Hi Lollee, Thank you for your post. It is well received. I did feel a little 'beat up' by those who were still bashing me for enabling even after I left the scene. I definitely feel like the 'She Let Go' posting/poem.

I write as much as I do as an outlet for things on my mind and also for others to see and maybe something I say will help them in some way.

LOL - I am also unable to write the short, sweet, to the point posts of others! I try.

a quote I read many years ago... YOU DON'T KNOW HOW STRONG YOU ARE UNTIL STRONG IS ALL YOU'VE GOT.

Thank you for responding. Newcomers need to see your messages again. You help to reinforce that what we are doing is right. and thanks for clearing things up for the readers.

my son has enough 'seeds' to plant a garden. I hope he does.

the job he is working is labor job, small crew, low stress. decent pay for the type of work. the stress is in getting to work, and keeping the job while navigating his life style. work has always been a priority (to have $ for drugs) so hoping he is able to keep the job long enough to use his pay for better changes. he spoke of his boss being a kind of mentor. with us parents out of the way, maybe he will tap into that relationship to give him motivation.

my advice if he looses job. go to detox, and then to sober living.(coming home is no longer an option) his reason for not going to detox is that he would loose the job or have to explain time off to his boss. and time off would decrease his pay check. (which would have been OK if living at home, and truly wanting a sober life)

AHH the tangled webs one weaves!.

For the future,, he needs to live with his peers, not with his parents (our help is not helpful). a place he went to in FL in 2016 was a good program and has grown in the community. I feel confident that he has options. he just has to pick one.

Posted by: jeffreyrunner March 12, 2019, 11:21 AM
You woman are amazing and strong. I'm Returning .... I was originally posted as the Father of a then pregnant daughter(age 26) on suboxone to get thru her 2nd pregnancy. Last few months I've returned to this site for strength as I watched her slide back into her old routines.
The last two years daughter had just replaced pills with alcohol. No rehab or counseling was attempted. Fast forward we are fully back into the sh*t show of pills, along with her addict boyfriend.
SO the two kids, both under three, have a mom(my daughters) facing an addiction that is bigger and badder then ever.
Good news her enablers are stopping now.
Daughter Income tax of $8000 spent in ten days, was their final straw.
I'm working with ex-wife to get the kids removed.

By reading these post, and getting my ex-wife to read them have meant so much to us. It keeps us strong.
Learning lessons from you all, to save myself years of this cycle,plus thousands of dollars and to put our focus on helping her kids.
So thank you all, we all are in different stages of recovering from this trauma ourselves... No manual to this madness... so when we fall into an enabling act, just reboot and learn from each other.




Posted by: NyToFlorida March 12, 2019, 1:20 PM
JR - thank you for your post. It means a lot to me.

** tax return.... my son's was 1500. that was a wake up for us too. If Feb he started asking about it. we saw what was going to happen. same thing as previous years - gone in a week. He started saying he would pay off his cred card ($500 balance) Give me some to hold, pay his bills.... wink, wink, all the happy things a mom wants to hear!

we bought into it a little with our hopeful hearts! but really expected the usual.

his return $$ was direct deposit, but he had a $38 neg bal on his account that went into collections at the same time as the deposit was happening. in the past 6 months he did not care to clear it up. oh boy, now he was motivated. even took a day off work to go to the bank.

we also 'kicked him out' so he tells us he spent the 1500 plus the next pay check on sec,deposit and rent (1400) plus getting to work for two weeks. he is now out of money and has til Friday for next paycheck. stopped by our house last night - bc it is close to work, has no gas. I am not home and not helping and he has not called me.

btw - he put food in oven and fell asleep on couch. husband came home to burnt chicken. we are worried about him burning house down. husband may flip the breaker for the oven.
this is a real worry. if we are not home and he 'stops by'. husband is not buying food. pantry and fridge are very empty.

There comes that point when we cant do the dance any longer.


Posted by: jeffreyrunner March 12, 2019, 1:40 PM
NY,

The tax return must be the Drug dealers biggest month.
My daughter said all the right things leading up to the money being deposited. The major enablers, were all due to collect recent loans they gave her. That didn't happen.
She took the kids and bought them clothes and got haircuts... then the crazy train arrived. Now, no gas, electric shut off notice, no food, no job, no money but several unbelievable stories ...

Unfortunately, for Children's Services to do anything, it's got to get worse. We had a case opened and they shut it after only two month, two years ago. I know they are swamped with this crisis.

I hope you have more and more better days ahead.
Jeff

Posted by: Alexandra’s Mom March 14, 2019, 6:54 AM
NytoFlorida,
I am new to posting but wanted to give you encouragement. My daughter is currently incarcerated. It is your life. It was hard to tell my daughter that she can’t live here and she is hurt and is angry about it but I can now work on myself and getting back on track with my relationships with my husband and son.

Posted by: YellowBirds March 14, 2019, 12:54 PM
LOLLEEDEE - thanks so much for posting. Your insight as someone who battled through addiction is invaluable. Thank you! You give me hope.

Posted by: jeffreyrunner March 14, 2019, 1:43 PM
Yes, LolleeDee,

The insight and message you share helps so many of us.
Jeff

Posted by: NyToFlorida March 20, 2019, 9:48 AM
Hello Friends, I am back home after 3 weeks. I spent time at a family vacation home, my brother's house, my in-laws house - where I helped with spring cleaning! During that time I had a few interviews and landed a new job! It was so relaxing to be away. my body got used to not being 'fear driven'. I want to hold on to the 'normal' feeling. my son had called me a few times and texted. I did not answer. he was not persistent and did not harass me. There is a bit of anxiety, PTSD being home again. A little fear that he will show up. this morning I was sleeping and dreaming that I was sleeping in his bed, heard movement in the hallway, heard the shower running. It was so real - while dreaming - oh no, I am in his room, he's in the shower, he will come in here. So relieved when I opened my eyes and I was Not in his room. He was Not in the shower. No One was home.... Back to the fear. if he stayed out at night he would stop by on way to work to shower. I guess the two times of day I am afraid of is morning on his way to work and afternoon on his way home.

Addiction - a family 'disease'. the same triggers they experience, we experience too.

Some how, when I do see him I will have to stay firm. keep it simple.

As much as my optimistic brain wants to say "success in 3 weeks!" I know the truth is that he will show up with the same old stories. and this will continue to go on until he changes it. Or we do by changing our patterns and habits.

thank you for the support!



Posted by: NyToFlorida March 20, 2019, 10:00 AM
story time - on the 15th he was supposed to get paid. the company - small landscaping - did not have the checks ready. son tried calling me a few times. I did not answer. he called his dad. said that he would be paid on Sunday (no banks open). said he had no food or gas and 400 rent was due - he and room mate would be thrown out. he had been borrowing $$ for past week. husband did not give $$. (we do not know how he got thru the weeks but gives us confidence he can do it without us enabling. hopefully he ran out of drugs too)

There's a lie somewhere - previously he told us he used the tax return and mar 1st pay for rent, deposit and security. therefore, no rent should have been due on the 15th.

I am sure he borrowed to get thru the weeks. now this paycheck will pay people back, and maybe he owes 400 if he did not fully pay on the 1st. therefore, this paycheck will be gone asap. and then no $$ for the next one or two weeks... and the cycle continues.

we can only hope he feels the squeeze and figures out his priorities.

when I look back, he has always lived this way since college. always a paycheck behind.

I know now that he understands what he has to do. he has been shown and given all the tools he needs to succeed. we hope he does. still sad that he doesn't.

I'm still not sure if I can be strong enough when he shows up with no gas. It is so much easier to give him $20 to leave me alone. and easier to avoid enabling when I am not available.

Posted by: NyToFlorida March 20, 2019, 7:26 PM
UGH... so soon? he stopped in at lunch time! I was not home for 24 hours! do they have "mom radar?!" Luckily I was ready to go out. said hello, and left. he ate the last can of soup and left.
*sigh* we are not buying food.

Posted by: NyToFlorida March 21, 2019, 10:24 AM
When I was away from home I felt how normal thinking I can be. I am a productive person but I was squashed by my sons addiction consuming me. My current problem - back home it is all hitting me again. Fear he will stop by. I am not afraid, I just don’t want to be pulled in again. I want my time at home to be MY TIME. Today I am not productive. I don’t want to be stuck here. In stead of getting things done at home I am planning to go out so I miss the lunch time swing by and go out again so I miss the after work swing by. Of course I won’t time it right and get stuck some how, some where

Posted by: sad eyes March 22, 2019, 5:43 AM
Yes NYT I have always been a very productive person, but in the last couple of years on my days of, I am going to do so much, and before I know it it early evening and done nothing, I get cross with myself that I have wasted my days off,and I understand the feeling that you don't want to see him, or calling in, when I pull up my driveway it's like a relief if his cars not home, he is cleaning his place up ATM as I write, anyway on a lighter note I am getting spoilt tomorrow from other daughter in law, spa massage lunch axmas present that we are just getting round to using, I hope it keeps my mind of things

Posted by: NyToFlorida March 22, 2019, 1:55 PM
Enjoy the spa day!

Posted by: samegame March 22, 2019, 3:55 PM
Ah yes, time away from the alkie or addict. It brings peace, calm and quiet. I enjoy it so much anymore I absolutely dred any incoming contact with them. It's like night and day when they're not around. It's so much different.

Good job holding firm on money. If he's using and needs money he has to prioritize what he does get. That's part of the process, work and budget and priorities. Can't be continuously falling back on family or anyone for that matter. They must become independent.

Hang Tough!

Posted by: NyToFlorida March 29, 2019, 12:59 PM
Update. I have left home again. Had to save myself. I have been reading old posts. One spoke of locking up valuables and made the connection that we lock up our valuables but we stay physically and mentally vulnerable to the situation as though our own life, OUR SELF, is not valuable.

I feel like this is the point I got to a month ago, after 6 years! Guess I am a slow learner! Wish I learned it sooner! I think we all go thru some period of enabling/helping because we want to do everything we can to help our loved one. there is a LOT of help out there. Even though the statistics are low for recovering addicts, I think it is higher than we know bc people do recover and they are not part of the statistics. I wanted so much for my son to be someone who recovered and learned how to work with his difficulties, be the great guy he was meant to be!

It takes time for us parents to keep trying all we can think of. To be the cheerleader for our kids. To throw them the life line. I have gotten to the point where I know we did everything and more. My son went to rehab a few times, I know he knows what to do. Last summer I SAW recovery work with my own eyes. I SAW the help he had from the local hospital and recovery center. THEY are on his side. I SAW him work recovery, make and go to appointments without my help.

The month he started drinking, he wrecked a truck. I can not prevent that. I can not be with him at 3am, when he says he isn't going to drive tonight. HE makes these decisions. NOTHING I can do to stop it. Still we continued to help by letting him live w us, start a new job, drive a car (yes we are stupid people), we have kept reminding him of sobriety, go to meetings, the gym, therapist. turned to begging and screaming. turned to fear, anger, sadness.

Finally I took a look at myself. I did not like the persons my husband and I became. A shell of a person. motivated by fear, pushed into decisions we did not agree with bc of the actions of others.
I was not living up to any of MY VALUES. I was not taking care of My Self. I was not Being all I could Be. Husband and I have been raising family, working, preparing for a retirement dream. We don't have a lot of $$ but we have enough if we plan it right. I also want to enjoy and socialize w family and friends in a carefree way. We were not living the life we have dreamed of. WE NEED A Break -- (as dutchess did - 'don't contact me for 6 months')

I have no Regrets. I know we have done everything and twice that. These truths finally sunk in. We have no Control. If money and love and wishes could fix it, it would have been fixed years ago. Our son can not live with us. even if he is sober. there are too many triggers and personality and co-dependent behaviors. He can not be independent while living in our house. At his age of almost 30 he needs to be with other men his age in a sober environment in order to be successful. I finally admitted that our help was not helping him to be sober. and even the littlest amount undermines his success. Only he can decide to be sober.

I was home for a week but the stress of panic and fear got to me. I am starting a new job and I want to be fully 'present' for that job. I do not want to look like a 'deer in the headlights'. the job is a little bit over my qualifications, the company is taking a risk in hiring me, I want to prove to myself that I can do this and learn this new job. I do not want to fail because my son is pulling my strings. I need MY total Peace of Mind about me. I am staying w a friend and will look for an apartment in a few weeks if I can not feel comfortable in my own house. My husband agrees - we need to be firm and cut son off. He's doing it his way. I am doing it my way. my husband can be difficult - but it is only when there is chaos all around us. If it is just the two of us dealing with each other, there are no problems. the stress exacerbates the small annoyances in a relationship.

I am out of the house again. This is OK and also good for my husband. when we are together we mull over the issue of the day constantly and fuel the anger and fear. we both end up too stressed to sleep whether son has had contact or not.

My last face to face conversation w my son was a few weeks ago. He said "I don't want to manipulate and take advantage of you" - I said "I know" "being apart is best for all 3 of us. The family dynamic has gotten bad for all of us." I feel comfortable that he understands we are not coming from a place of hate but from a place that is trying to help him by getting out of the way. He even said something like this a month ago - that the three of us need to move on each go our separate way if that's what it takes.

He has texted a few times. I replied "there's nothing I can say that I have not said 100 times. Go to hospital and then to sober living"

It has been one month. his world is getting smaller. car problems, phone problems, idk about job - he will get a pay check this week. idk if car is still running, if he will be working next week. he has reached out about problems, pushing the 'buttons' to see what still works. we have not given anything.

Thanks for listening. Sorry so long winded. Wanted to let others know my progress. Even though I knew all of this information, I only now feel it is true and know that what we are doing is right.

Posted by: Sallyanna March 29, 2019, 7:09 PM
NTF thank you for your update! I am so happy you are taking care of YOU. Your post speaks total awareness and truth and I admire your strength. I hope your new job goes well and please keep taking good care of yourself.

Posted by: NyToFlorida March 29, 2019, 10:13 PM
ty! All of us here are strong. idk how we all get through it. my son started texting. I am not giving in. but it is very difficult and emotional. sad. I remind myself that giving in has not helped before.

Posted by: Sallyanna March 30, 2019, 7:46 AM
It is very emotional. I know when my daughter calls part of me wants to say just come home and I'll take care of you. Then, thankfully, reality sets in because I can't take care of her and even if I could it wouldn't help her towards sobriety. It would just delay any hope for it. Her choices are her choices not mine. As a mother, as you know, it's hard and sad.

Posted by: samegame March 31, 2019, 4:01 PM
You're right to detach. Sometimes it's the combination of people and settings that can innocently trigger or exacerbate the addict or alcoholic. Especially parents because the child can and will hold a grudge justified or not. Alkie here with rich friends in high school still occasionally express his resentment he wasn't sent away to a college campus after high school For starters he didn't have the grades. He's also mad at various people not bailing him out financially over the decades. The addiction also means repetitive or obsessive thought never letting anything go no matter how convoluted.

Posted by: BugginMe April 1, 2019, 9:35 AM
I don’t remember where I got this but came across it today. Thought someone on here might enjoy it. Thought I would share...

One day you finally knew
what you had to do, and began,
though the voices around you
kept shouting
their bad advice—
though the whole house
began to tremble
and you felt the old tug
at your ankles.
"Mend my life!"
each voice cried.
But you didn't stop.
You knew what you had to do,
though the wind pried
with its stiff fingers
at the very foundations,
though their melancholy
was terrible.
It was already late
enough, and a wild night,
and the road full of fallen
branches and stones.
But little by little,
as you left their voices behind,
the stars began to burn
through the sheets of clouds,
and there was a new voice
which you slowly
recognized as your own,
that kept you company
as you strode deeper and deeper
into the world,
determined to do
the only thing you could do—
determined to save
the only life you could save.

- Mary Oliver

Posted by: BugginMe April 1, 2019, 9:58 AM
Another good thing to read is...
The Giving Tree by Shel Silverstein.

Posted by: BugginMe April 1, 2019, 10:04 AM


Once a little boy was playing outdoors and found a fascinating caterpillar. He carefully picked it up and took it home to show his mother. He asked his mother if he could keep it, and she said he could if he would take good care of it.
The little boy got a large jar from his mother and put plants to eat, and a stick to climb on, in the jar. Every day he watched the caterpillar and brought it new plants to eat.

One day the caterpillar climbed up the stick and started acting strangely. The boy worriedly called his mother who came and understood that the caterpillar was creating a cocoon. The mother explained to the boy how the caterpillar was going to go through a metamorphosis and become a butterfly.

The little boy was thrilled to hear about the changes his caterpillar would go through. He watched every day, waiting for the butterfly to emerge. One day it happened, a small hole appeared in the cocoon and the butterfly started to struggle to come out.

At first the boy was excited, but soon he became concerned. The butterfly was struggling so hard to get out! It looked like it couldn’t break free! It looked desperate! It looked like it was making no progress!

The boy was so concerned he decided to help. He ran to get scissors, and then walked back (because he had learned not to run with scissors…). He snipped the cocoon to make the hole bigger and the butterfly quickly emerged!

As the butterfly came out the boy was surprised. It had a swollen body and small, shriveled wings. He continued to watch the butterfly expecting that, at any moment, the wings would dry out, enlarge and expand to support the swollen body. He knew that in time the body would shrink and the butterfly’s wings would expand.

But neither happened!

The butterfly spent the rest of its life crawling around with a swollen body and shriveled wings.

It never was able to fly…

As the boy tried to figure out what had gone wrong his mother took him to talk to a scientist from a local college. He learned that the butterfly was SUPPOSED to struggle. In fact, the butterfly’s struggle to push its way through the tiny opening of the cocoon pushes the fluid out of its body and into its wings. Without the struggle, the butterfly would never, ever fly. The boy’s good intentions hurt the butterfly.

Posted by: Noodle April 1, 2019, 11:42 AM
Oh my Bugs!
Crystal clear explanation that we all have to stop enabling. Thank you so much for posting that today.

Posted by: mtnmom April 1, 2019, 10:28 PM
wow Buggin Me!! Thanks (I know I've said this before) but Thanks to this group of parents with children or partners with addictions, I have learned (even though it is so hard to watch him struggle) that I CAN & SHOULD say no. I didn't cause it, I can't cure it & I can't control it.... He caused it & chose to return to it - his love, his mistress, his best friend....

Posted by: mtnmom April 1, 2019, 10:32 PM
N2F, our help hasn't helped in the past. We ARE strong, we ARE smart & we have to listen to our instincts & not our hearts. Our children have to save their own lives.

Posted by: Sallyanna April 2, 2019, 7:23 AM
Thanks for sharing BugginMe! It is so hard to watch the struggle but helping only hurts and hinders. It goes against our grain as parents/spouses. However, whenever I learned the most in life, it was always through adversity. I keep praying...

Posted by: NyToFlorida April 2, 2019, 8:25 PM
Thank you, Bugs! And Thank you, Mary Oliver. It is so true. It made me cry. Sad we all have to suffer so.

I am still not home. No contact. My husband is dealing with our son as needed. Reaching out to him. First by yelling text messages - don't come to our house, will get court order and call police. Trying to give him pressure so he will make a decision to go somewhere to attain a sober life. And then messages with suggestions on where to go, or how to turn this around (but not at our house). trying to show him an out...

he has not harassed me. I like to think that he does understand that he has used and manipulated me and does not want to do that to me. I think it is a good idea for just his dad and him to see this through. it is too complicated with both of us at him to figure stuff out. I am happy to step back. I really got to the breaking point. I just can not do it anymore -- and to not see progress or results from my efforts and suffering.

Posted by: mtnmom April 2, 2019, 10:00 PM
awwww, NY to FL, we have all felt that dread.... the pit in the stomach when our kid shows up. let your husband handle it now & if you have to, let him get the court order. As I said in another thread, my addict son ignores the family until he crashes. Then he reaches out in the middle of the night with text messages, feeling sorry for himself, needs a job.... wants PITY. My daughter in law felt bad & wanted to offer help in the form of letting him come to their home but he had to check into a detox first. I told her that HE needs to want it on his own & voluntary check-ins can also be voluntary check outs. So after talking for a while, she asked him "what exactly does he want "us" to do to help" and told him that nothing we do & nothing was say can fix him. He is the only person to do that, encouraged him to take the 1st step on his own to prove to the family that he IS asking for help. He replied he didn't need detox, he needs "a warm loving home filled with laughter". And then shortly thereafter sent a scathing text to his brother (DIL's husband) cursing him - You don't care & never have, but I will make sure that one day you will care!" Calling him a MFer and a prick... nice way to talk to the person he wants to provide him a "warm loving home...." Same old song & dance - doesn't need detox, just wants sympathy. We have no sympathy left for this manipulative, lying, mean, nasty addict

Posted by: NyToFlorida April 4, 2019, 7:48 AM
awwwg - The situations are awful. The drugs do a number on the thought process. The AMA should use our addicts to do a first hand study on the side effects of these medications/drugs. I think even high functioning people who are begin taking the meds for a physical problem become more sick mentally and physically because of the meds, even if they are taken as directed. the problem is that the drs and patients think their illness or back pain etc are getting worse, it could be the meds are making them worse.

Posted by: NyToFlorida April 18, 2019, 11:18 PM
Update my husband took son to hospital this week. While driving son tried to exit the vehicle. Husband called police. Met at hospital.. 72 hour hold. Then we don’t know.. hoping he goes into the rehab at the hospital. Most likely no one will call us. Execept the psyc dr at 3am asking what happened that day.. geeesh.

It’s weird how I have tried so hard for so long to save my son. But now I just stopped. I finally saw that he needs to want to live a sober life and I want to live my life. I want my freedom.

He is old enough to be independent and he needs a support system made up of his peers. We all need a fresh start without the complications and triggers and codependent behaviors that have been ingrained in us.

I am still not home. The ptsd will take a long time to heal and only if my son is not living in the area. Every car I see on the road reminds me of the ones he wrecked. The $$ we spent. So done with it. So many years have gone by. This past year, I look back and I don’t see his efforts. Or appreciation for us paying for cars and insurance for past 2 years, so many ways he could have shown it. He did say it sometimes but didn’t act it. Just simple things... Like when we went away a holidays and he and friends drank dads 12 pack of beer. This was out of character, usually would not do that. Dad gave him attitude. ‘Normal’ thing to do would be to replace the beer at next paycheck. Nope, son acted like it was there for the taking. I got tired of the take, take, take and no give back.

I think I feel a bit betrayed and taken advantage of. I used to think my son ‘didn’t know’ what was going on. I have realized that he knows and chooses not to be sober and chooses to lie, manipulate and take from me. And I let him. A sad situation but I can not participate any more. I am sure he can make it if he stays sober long enough.

Posted by: Sallyanna April 19, 2019, 3:01 AM
Hi NTF I have been thinking of you. I hope your son choses rehab at the hospital. Its good you are taking care of you and you now see things very clearly. I hope this is a wake up call for him. Things had to change and you made it happen now it's plain stark reality and truth.

Posted by: sad eyes April 19, 2019, 3:25 PM
I haven't posted in a while, still on and read every day, so sad situations all round, NTY I hope your son chose to stay in hospital / rehab, no matter how much we want it for them or hard we try to help, it has to come when there ready and want it, every thing I read says the same, we just have to find a way to save areselves, when you say you look back on the years that you have helped him out, I feel that they think we owe them, or there mind has altered that much that they can't see logical things, we'd like them to, it's just not there anymore keep us updated as to how he's going

Posted by: mtnmom April 23, 2019, 8:42 AM
NTF - did he stay? Did they find a rehab? Your son & my son seem to follow the same path. I relate to every word you share. I, too, am just done - I see that all my "help" simply enabled him to continue his bad behavior, I now see that every penny given went to meth, I now see that he is very conniving & manipulative & has NO SHAME in the lengths he will go or say in order to hurt us & trick us into thinking he needs our help. After we told him we will not help him in any way until he completes rehab & is in sober living, he will now call & be nice but as soon as he realizes we aren't giving him money or paying a bill, he explodes on us.

I will not allow this abuse in my life. If he was ANYONE else, we would break off the relationship. So until he chooses life over addiction, I won't be a part of it. We all have choices to make in life, he has made his & now he has to live with those choices... it breaks my heart, but I'm beyond feeling sad about it & hoping THIS TIME he means what he says.

We live 1,000 miles away from him. I'm sure he will end up in jail because he is still ignoring the restraining order his ex girl friend got to get him out of HER house....

Posted by: NyToFlorida April 24, 2019, 8:32 AM
Hello mtnmom - glad to see you back! Son is still at hospital. after 72hr hold, we heard nothing. after another 3 days our daughters got worried. husband went to hospital to see if he was still there. first they would not tell him. then they told him to come back later in the day. Meeting w husband, son and councelors. (all of a sudden, they want to discharge him) Husband says "He can not live w us. and we are not giving him a car. we're doing the community a favor by not letting him drive - that's how dangerous it is." Son says all he needs is a job and a car and he will be fine..... (uah - he has always had that - he wasn't fine)

They would have gladly discharged him to us. I think my son does not want to live w us, but would jump at it if we allowed it. Husband was firm. counselors told son - we can discharge you to rehab in hospital or to the homeless shelter. He chose rehab. so - we have freedom for 3 weeks.

Husband has been handling it all. It is best this way. no more 3 people or triangle conversations. just one on one. I have been the major enabler so I had to break that cycle. Son does not ask about me or say anything about it. Husband told him I left and he doesn't know whats going to happen. son probably doesn't believe I am gone for good. I hope deep down he understands why I have dropped out of contact. I think he does, he should understand it.

Since my son has the most problem w his dad - "dad doesn't understand me..." etc... I think it is good for them to be forced to deal with each other without me in the middle.

I have come back home. (ugh - have to clean everything - Hubby didn't do too much cleaning while I was gone!)


conclusion - we have to steer our own boat and stay firm.

after the hospital rehab they will again try to discharge him to us. we will not allow it. they will have to place him somewhere.

I guess this is progress from last year. His relapse was shorter this time bc we put our foot down and wrangled him out of the house. and off our phone bill, and off our car insurance!

Now HE has to make the progress for himself.

Thanks to all of you for listening and sharing!

Posted by: Walkedon April 24, 2019, 11:03 AM
Stay strong. So many times I fell for the discharge to Mom trick. It's not really the social workers fault, it's insurance reg and payment crap.
I too was able to say no you can't come home.Its hard enough saying it to your kid, but I felt like the system was hanging up on me too. I had to say the same thing as your husband. It is safer for society that my daughter not be out of the hospital.
She is doing better, but it has been a long road.Its going to continue to be long road

Posted by: mtnmom April 24, 2019, 3:52 PM
Stay strong N2F, it is hard. Both my husband & I were the enablers, but no more. We know how much money & "help" has been given and yet here he is - homeless, addicted, restraining order in place, violation of said order pending criminal charges. Refuses help BUT when he realizes he has s*** on everyone & doesn't have money for dope, all of a sudden he has an epiphany & realizes (insert magic words here:) Drugs have destroyed his life, he chose drugs over everything & he need help. But not one bit of sorrow, regret, or even an I'm kind of sorry.... it's all about what we aren't doing to help him. He thinks we are such idiots that saying those words means he is being honest & therefore we are obligated to help him.

Posted by: NyToFlorida April 24, 2019, 5:00 PM
You have been thru so much.

Shut off the phones if you need to. sometimes I would for a few hours just because I did not want to hear it 'ping' or see it light up with anything. my son was not harassing (thank god)… once every two weeks he would send a text and I would not respond.

a few days before hospital he texted he was starving.... blah, blah.... he texted 'cant you answer, what's wrong with you' I saw the message when he sent it at midnight. I did not answer. had a hard time sleeping. in the morning I texted back "I was sleeping" then I told his dad who contacted him and bought him a meal and went to a dollar store for a few things. dad gave him $10 for laundry mat.. and to try to talk him into hospital.

My typical reaction would have been grocery store - fill up the carriage - I would have given cash too. so glad my husband is handling it. it is easier for him to say no.

thanks to everyone sharing their stories here I was able to finally believe as you do too. that nothing we did helped in the long run. and he keeps 'needing' more. I also got to the point where I had to realize that it is possible my son has been in this too long and will never be sober. as much as it hurts and pulls at our heart, his (and our) only hope is if we are out of the enabling picture.

over the past few months I have peeled back the curtain to see that my son was lying much more than we thought. we knew everything was at least half lie. but as you are saying - it seems like every day was a lie. We gave with good intentions, but his good intentions were not there at the table. just too unfair and manipulating right under our roof! awful.

not what we expected from our son. Amazing how he can stick to lies. And how he still came and went and did whatever with dad screaming to "Get Out" for two months! 'Normal' kids would have ran from the house with all that screaming going on! I think because son put up with it, we kept thinking he would 'change his life'. he would actually be so calm and make us believe he was 'trying'.

we don't even want to be near it anymore! Ugh!
who knows what the next week will bring!
Hugs for everyone, we need it!




Posted by: mtnmom April 24, 2019, 8:12 PM
yes, NY2FL the behavior we accept is the behavior we receive... Just received an email (I won't respond to text/calls/voice mails) stating that he got 3 job offers today with no help from anyone in his piece of s*** family....

And he wonders why we are angry & fed up with his hateful abuse

Posted by: mtnmom April 24, 2019, 8:13 PM
and I don't believe he got any job offers and he still will have to pass a pre-employment physical & drug test

Posted by: Parenting2 April 24, 2019, 10:09 PM
Yes, hugs to all. We do need it!

Posted by: NyToFlorida April 28, 2019, 4:24 PM
Update. son has been at hospital psyc for one week, rehab for one week. husband went to visit - family day. disaster. son is highly medicated. bad attitude. claims this is all our fault and that's why he's there. claims the only thing he needs is a car and a job. where will he live and eat? he says he will rob and steal. that's his plan.

he called his dad an a**hole and walked out of the visit.

** our fault for putting him there with others who have bad attitudes. he is learning how to live on the street. he is learning how to be a shi**y person instead of a better person.

not what we expected. very different from the same program he was in last year at the same place. difference this time is that we think he went in while on a methadone treatment. therefore we think they kept him on methadone. did not detox him. and added pysc meds.

I am sure the meds contribute to his attitude. He thinks he is OK. just like when he's on the street drugs. its the same stuff.

he has same shi**y attitude as he did 2 weeks ago when he showed up at our door to stay the night when no one was home. I was not living here and husband went away for a few days to help a relative. some one dropped him off here.

they are going to discharge him in a week. they think he is fine. 'we' need to be understanding.

I'm so upset I cant even cry.


Posted by: BugginMe April 28, 2019, 5:20 PM
Going to visit seemed to always work out badly for me. Don’t let your son hold you hostage with threats. Remember it is his choice if he decides to be a s***ty person and/or a criminal. His choice but he will try to put it all on you. He will tell you all he needs is a little help and what you can give him. It didn’t work the last time or all the times before. What is different now? Nothing will change if nothing changes. It does no good to repeat things over and over that didn’t work before. Someone has to learn from their actions even if that someone is us. Never seemed to me like the system was doing enough to help my son but I finally realized it was him didn’t want their help or to change his life. He liked things the way they were. And the hospitals / doctors think if they are not suicidal then they are ok. Send them home to us.

Posted by: sad eyes April 28, 2019, 5:51 PM
That must be really hard on you and hubby, he's detoxing, and the worst is coming out no logical thinking, blaming everyone else, I remenber my son it was a few years ago he went into a 30 day programe rehab, remenber him going in on a Saturday, we couldent visit till the following weekend, he was only in 5 days and was phoning saying he did't need to be in, he could do this himself!!!, and got his bags packed, me and eldest son was besides areselves, but other brother spoke to him, not sure what was said, but he ended up staying and finishing the programe, the women that was running it phoned and said if he comes out I can tell you now he's going right back to the drugs he's detoxing and craving bad, why would they give your son methadone, thought that was for herione, hope he manages to stay the rest of the time, could he stay longer if he wanted to? The longer there there, a month is nothing neither for rehab, they need to be away on a programe for a year, they have the best results, who can afford them, things might change with the government if they had someone close to them with addictions, stay safe and keep us posted

Posted by: NyToFlorida April 28, 2019, 9:48 PM
Buggs - it was a good program last year. He wanted to be there. This time he does not want to be there. Like you said he thinks he can do this on his own (if we give him car, food, gas)

We are not letting him back home. No car.
We will have constant fear he will show up at the house. I can see where u were at.

Sad eyes - he was using herion. He went to methadone clinic a few weeks ago. Entered hospital already on it. So they did not detox him bc they consider it treatment for the addiction . They have told him he needs to be on it for the rest of his life. Along w some other meds. Idk what they are.

This is a deeper hole to dig out of. And son still in denial that he needs help. Just needs “to get out and get a job”

I thought this would go better , as it did last year.

Maybe his living with other addict criminals for the past month backfired on us. Instead of him wanting to get out of the life style it has taught him how to live the life style.

I don’t know whether to try to get him to a better place or leave him to do whatever happens when they discharge him. Idk what that will be.

Posted by: Sallyanna April 28, 2019, 11:24 PM
Could he go to a sober living if he's on methadone treatment? He can't do heroin while he's on methadone which is good. This is so hard because it's hard to know what to do like how much to get involved. He's almost 30 if I remember right maybe let him find his own way. I don't know though this is the hard part as a parent.

Posted by: NyToFlorida April 29, 2019, 6:50 AM
Methodone - sober living. It depends on the place. Most likely not. So the system is setting him up for failure. No housing, job, income. Medicate and discharge to homeless shelter with no resources. Over the years he has not been able to figure this out on his own. We contacted a private rehab. It will cost $13,000 for one month. He has been there before. Does not want to go. Not sure he would follow thru. Husband is going to talk to social worker today.

Posted by: mtnmom April 29, 2019, 8:12 AM
NY2FL - when I read your posts, I feel I'm reading about my life right now. You are in the same place as us - they don't need rehab, they know what they should do but choose not to do it! They are so ugly & cruel to us. Everyone knows they have a problem & need help EXCEPT THEM! We caused all their problems & we are horrible people yet they continually harass & verbally attack us when we won't help.

My son is still in jail - should be arraigned today. 1 misdemeanor for violating restraining order & a few felonies for hit & run, domestic violence & I don't know what else. Truck is impounded - when he gets out he won't have housing or a truck, no job, no rehab.... I feel if he REALLY wants to live somewhere, he can move into a sober living. If he chooses NOT to, well that is his choice. At 45, he will have to live by the consequences of his choices.

My son still tries to call us collect from the jail each day & we still won't accept the calls - we don't want to hear it, we don't want to hear ANYTHING from him. He's either calling for money or to blame us for not paying for private rehab... He's already called his friend to have him ask his ex to please drop the charges because SHE is ruining his life....

Posted by: Sallyanna April 29, 2019, 8:28 AM
I would think by losing everything it would be a turning point for them to initiate change. However, if they blame others, be rude, intimidate, all the old behaviors that used to work for them suddenly don't work anymore, then there they are. Alone with themself to see the raw reality of what their life has become at their own doing. They would realize they could start over with their own abilities it would be one step at a time. I'm not sure if everyone is capable of this but the alternative is more of the same....for everyone.

Posted by: BugginMe April 29, 2019, 9:04 AM
NYTF - Truth is once they get on that road and start hanging out with those types of people it is hard to change their direction. I think sometimes by helping them we are only postponing the inevitable, draining our bank account and using up our mental resources. I found that at some point it becomes kind of like trying to pull a heavy rock uphill. It is exhausting! He would have done the same living with friends or living in your house. Don’t blame yourself. Rehab will not work if he doesn’t want change. It is not easy to detach but sometimes you have to protect yourself and let them go.

MTNMOM - You might need to change your phone number if you get tired of his calls. I think once the district attorney decides someone has committed a crime the charges can’t be dropped. Sounds like your son may get jail time. I can’t imagine they will be letting him out anytime soon. His bail is too high so no one will bail him out.

Posted by: mtnmom April 29, 2019, 9:18 PM
Bugging me, we are considering changing our numbers, we ALREADY moved out of state! He had his arraignment today, they only filed ONE MISDEMEANOR charge of contempt of court order. Bail was reduced to $25,000. He plead not guilty so he'll still be cooling his jets until the next date. I'm sure the calls will continue but we won't accept them.

I think it is because he's never laid a hand on her, he just harasses the hell out of everyone. But she told me he has taken several of her things from the house - a cowboy hat, a sweater & stole something from her mail box...

Posted by: NyToFlorida April 29, 2019, 9:48 PM
Hello everyone, thank you for your comments. btw - we will not spend 13,000 on one month of rehab. It is a really good program. after one month he would stay there, get a job, and live in their sober living apartments and pay rent. ….. if it was a sure thing we would do it. We did it once it lasted 5 months before he relapsed. that was about 3 yrs ago.

We are hoping the hospital places him in treatment somewhere. I think they were trying to get us to take him first, they have not talked about further placement. maybe they wont talk to us now that we said we wont take him back. it is sad to think the medical system turns him into a disabled person and then sends him to a shelter. idk

thank you for all sharing. it helps to bounce things around and hear other similar situations.

Our only action is to stay tough. My husband said we should treat him like we treat our other kids. give them no money and visit when able to. (LOL - we will tell him that)





Posted by: NyToFlorida May 9, 2019, 7:52 PM
I wanted to get some thoughts out without hyjacking some else’s post.

Recently my son started going to methodone clinic. We had kicked him out March 1st by the end of the month he wrecked his (our) junk car, on our insurance. We are firm on not supplying car or insurance ever again. And he lost job. Minimal amount of clothes. Was squatting with others at a rental apartment. Begin of April he started methodone, next week husband took him to hospital. Admitted to psyc where they gave more meds for a week, then to rehab at hospital where they kept him on methodone and added more meds. Apparently they do not automatically detox.

Half of this is his fault bc he did not want to detox and did not like any treatment plans they suggested to him. I blame the meds he is on. I spoke to a person at the hospital who worked his case last year. She said he is not the smiling person he was a year ago. How do they think it is ok to medicate someone and they expect them to make a good decision about their treatment plan. Let’s ask the over medicated addict who has been asleep for a year what he wants to do. If he had any good ideas he would not be in the hospital,

I do think the hospital failed to convince him that he had better options. The hospital basically fed him for 3 weeks and kept him medicated. Same as the street.

He left hospital on Tuesday. Contacted husband who said he can’t come to our house and to go back to hospital. Later that day I checked his email accnt and saw receipt for cvs. He purchased 5 rx. It does not list them.

We just have to wait. I am afraid every day. Afraid to see him, afraid to not see him.
Buggs - I now know the pain u feel. Awful knowing how your son is living, and knowing you can’t help. And knowing that they know, yet they can’t change it.

Posted by: aunt worry May 10, 2019, 7:24 PM
nytoflorida-i know what you mean about an addict being overmedicated. my noah was released after a 72 hour hold for suicidal ideation last december. he was so medicated at discharge that he could barely stand. yet somehow, the hospital thought he could manage safely and rationally out in the real world! it’s enough to make you sick.

i am hoping your son will find his way to a rehab place where he will do the hard work and he will be helped!

Posted by: NyToFlorida May 23, 2019, 10:06 PM
I will try to keep this short. Haha. My son left hospital on May 7. By the weekend was at a friends house. Someone who is clean atm, who was willing to help. I only talked to him for a few minutes on mother’s day. On thurs. 16th he called me said he tried to go to hospital, they would not admit him and told him to go to a stablization center and come back next day. (Apparently he still had meds he filled a week before and was ‘impared’ So they won’t admit him until he is in withdrawal. Bc of unpredictability of behavoir) but he does not tell me whole truth. Later he said stabilization center told him to leave. I don’t really know if he went there. At 11 am he told me he tried to go to hospital, at 6pm he called from jail. He was caught shoplifting. Petit larceny. And called at 9pm for us to bail him out. We said no. I said If I bail u out then where would u go? He said home w us and we could talk about it. I said No. his bail was $250, he told me bail was $25. The bond was $25. I would have gone there at 10/at night and gotten blindsided by the mess. (No thank you!) we found out he called several friends, no one will bail him out.

We spoke to one of the friends who said not to bail him out. Our daughters say not to bail him. We don’t want to bail him. My husband tried to visit him 3 times and each time the jail messed up and my husband did not get a time slot and told to come back. Even though he was first one there and waited an hour... ooops, sorry, come back later or tomorrow.

Posted by: NyToFlorida May 23, 2019, 10:31 PM
After a few days a lawyer called us. He spoke to our son, he is willing to go to a long term treatment center. Said the court will look into it. We don’t have to do anything. He will have one yr probation and go to jail if he breaks probation rules. The lawyer said let him stay in jail until they place him somewhere. (Thank you)

My son has been trying to call me. I will not answer when I am at work. And really don’t want to talk to him. There’s nothing to say. He had not been honest about anything in a long time. I don’t want to be harassed about bailing him out. Hasn’t said he’s sorry about anything.

All he had to do was go to the hospital sober or go to stabilization center and wait it out. He didn’t want to be sober then, no knowing if he wants to be now....

I feel a little bit sad for him. There’s nothing I can do. And nothing I want to do. It’s out of our hands. We have tried for the past two years (plus 5). He had not embraced anything that would be good for him. It has all been offered.

Posted by: NyToFlorida May 23, 2019, 10:33 PM
I know once he gets to a treatment center he will be calling no for $$. Cigs, a cab, a haircut, shoes.... the answer will be no. Been there done that...

Ps he said he stole a bag of chips.we don’t know what it was.

He had a large duffle bag packed to go to hospital, planning to go to treatment center from there. He said he was carrying that around, zippers are breaking... I wonder where it is now... I can’t tell you how many years he has been left with only a duffle bag of clothes. Saying that he doesn’t want to live this way. And he still doesn’t ‘get it’.

Posted by: mtnmom May 23, 2019, 10:50 PM
NY2FL - you are doing the right thing, if not for HIM, it is for you! I'm also walking in your shoes (as you know). He's in jail - he has a roof, food & bed. Court will order him into treatment & he'll be the court's problem to monitor. Drug Court or court orders have helped lots of people - hopefully son will get the treatment/diagnosis/etc that he so desperately needs.

I was trying to find reference materials for parents of dual diagnosis adult children, my son is a narcissistic meth addict. I remember when I first posted here, I talked about his arrogance with his addiction & at that time I didn't realize that is a classic Narcissist personality trait. But he also has generalized anxiety disorder & depression + addiction....

Hang in there.... you are doing what is right

Posted by: NyToFlorida May 25, 2019, 11:40 AM
I talked to my son. He sounded good. He said he stole a bag of chips. The store owner tackled him and call police. He is being kept bc of the previous charge that was still open. He is talking lawyer about wrapping up the charges and either doing the time or going to rehab.

He told me he left his large bag full of clothes outside the hospital when he walked to deli. 10 days later he tells me. 50/50 % chance that I will find it.... I forgot to ask him exactly where on the hospital grounds... I called hospital lost and found and police station. Left messages. It’s only clothes, toiletries, hair clippers... he packed in order to go away to rehab... . can be replaced, but really... geeze.... enough already..... I have paid for everything in the bag and will have to pay again to fit him w a new wardrobe....

I wish I could make a go fund me page.... yes I will go to good will stores... etc..

For now I am away for the weekend. Im thinking I should start purchasing before he gets out. Otherwise it will be an emergency ‘hey they’re transporting me today I need clothes!’

That’s me - planning ahead! - I will plan for the worst, hope for finding the bag, me planning ahead will save me grief in the long run... guess I know what I’m doing next week - hunting and gathering.

I will go thru his sisters closets to see if they have any old large unisex clothing... sweat shirts, pants....

He could have told me where his bag was on the day he got arrested instead of asking me for bail. And then spent days detoxing. And I didn’t answer my phone for the past week... guess I would have found out sooner if I answered.


Posted by: NyToFlorida May 25, 2019, 12:27 PM
Whew - got a call from hospital. His bag is there, someone had brought it in. !!!

Posted by: Sallyanna May 25, 2019, 1:32 PM
Yay!!! Good news!

Posted by: NyToFlorida June 18, 2019, 10:33 PM
my son is in jail for minor offense and I am still accepting collect calls, once a week. then he started calling more often and talking about coming home bc they won't let him out bc he is homeless. we have told him no. and I am not taking more than one call a week at $15 per call so I can be yelled at that it is our fault he is there. I also put $ on his Commissary account. It is still costing me $. he has said he appreciates it, and then calls to harass us about being able to live at home 'for a few months' to get on his feet. 'all he needs is a car and a job'
I told him he has had those things and we paid insurance and he didn't 'get on his feet'. when he realized No, means NO, he hung up on me. and then called back 2 hours later. I didn't answer.

I just want to walk way from it.

We know that he is probably realizing if he stays in jail for 6 months he will miss the whole summer. He has been offered sober living type options at the hospital and by us, but I think he does not want to do that. which means he does not want to live with rules or give up his freedom, or take responsibility for making decisions for his own good.
I think he is just seeing that he wants to get out, live at mom and dads house only for the free rent, food, and car - just like it has been. I think he cant believe that we are not going to 'get him back on his feet'.

we just cant. too much has happened. we can forgive, but we cant forget the 6 months of hell between last October and this march. If I had to leave my house bc of him, there is no way I can live one day at home with him. He thinks his problems are all dad's fault. yet he wants to live here??? !!!

I am hoping his behavior is part of being only one month sober. I even wonder if he remembers anything from the past year.

Its sad. I feel like his brain is so dumbed down, that he will be unemployable. but that is for him to figure out.... thanks for listening. no response necessary, unless you really want to.

Hope you are all so quiet bc you are busy doing summer stuff!!

We are going on a short trip for a few days and our daughters are visiting in a few weeks.




Posted by: Sallyanna June 18, 2019, 11:26 PM
NTF I totally get where you are coming from. They want their cake and eat it too (old expression) however life doesn't work that way....especially after reaching adulthood. My thoughts are with my daughter...if you want your problems to go away and all the chaos then get off drugs and do whatever it takes to do it. Drugs are the common denominator in ALL her problems and issues. My hope is she gets so sick of all the misery she's in and will start fresh at getting well. I tell her it's never to late to start over. I pray she does. Hope your son will get the help he needs too. I hope all our kids do.

Posted by: NyToFlorida June 21, 2019, 7:33 PM
SA - he wants his cake and our cake and any spare cake anyone has to offer, lol.

We are visiting daughter. Son has called her. She is 6 yrs younger, they get along well. Our son and 2nd child, daughter are 4 yrs apart. They are too opposites in opinions. Don’t get along. Although when sober they do get along fine. He lived w her for 4 months between relapses once.

On Monday my son called me asking if he can come home after jail. We said no. He hung up on me. He talked to his sister on next day. Had a trial at jail. He will be staying in until aug. and the cases will be settled and closed. No probation. He also wants puzzle books to do.

the first week he was jail he was in solitary until they figure out if your a danger. , he read newspapers. Last week we got a letter from him - trying to convince us to help him until he gets on his feet. ( I joked that he learned to read and write while in jail!)

This week he’s asking for books and puzzles. He has never been interested in books or puzzles before.

He had gotten a book to study for a CDL truck driving license, sometime last year, never opened it. This is the perfect time for him to concentrate.

He moved from solitary to general population, and now I think he is in a different group that has program with meetings.

Posted by: NyToFlorida June 21, 2019, 7:37 PM
He still will not admit that anything is his fault, but our daughter said that he did say things that implied that he knows he was not making good decisions, or life was out of control. More and more my husband and I see that the best and only thing for us to do is let son dig out on his own.

Posted by: Parenting2 June 21, 2019, 8:37 PM
That's tough, NY. Sounds just like my son. I am not sure if your son is like this---but they are different around other people. He probably realizes he is not correct, but just trying to get his way by making you feel guilty. Anyway, thinking of you. Enjoy your time with your daughters!

Posted by: NyToFlorida June 22, 2019, 12:31 AM
Hi Parenting, YES it seems he does that. I have noticed it. Like he told a hospital councilor that we pressure him and expect too much and it’s stressful.... but does not tell the details. Tells about the moments dad calls him on the phone screaming about something that seems minor to anyone who is not dealing with addiction behavior. They agree w son that dad is over the top negative. Maybe an example is when dad call him many times at work to confirm he would go to get tires on car after work. The part he does not tell is that the tires were bald and son should have been saving to put tires on it. And dad had been asking him to get tires for weeks and we were getting a snow storm the next day. And son was ignoring the issue and not confirming he would go to get tires until dad was screaming.. then son acts like “what’s the big deal”.

In his letter to us he states none of this is bc of drugs. He’s just in wrong place at the wrong time.

The realization also made me more confident that son is capable of being independent. It also makes me sad because my son is undermining us and taking advantage in a way that a con man would. I just don’t want to be around it or part of it.

Posted by: Parenting2 June 30, 2019, 10:18 PM
Yes, I have had many conversations about things that are directly attributed to heavy marijuana use with my son, but it is never that. He knows all about the drug and it cannot cause any of the issues he is having. He is getting better and more mature. I am trying to stay out of it, because really we are like oil and water. I have been the one in the thick of this from day one-paying for doctors, taking off work, going to visit at jail, listening to him when he is upset. Yet, his new thing to throw at me is that his dad understands him. (eye roll). Anyway, I am thankful that he seems to be improving and I am ready for him to grow up. I love him to pieces and am so glad to see him at times, but this whole roller coaster has been hard on me. I am ready for him to sprout some wings. (sigh). Love is hard.

Posted by: NyToFlorida October 18, 2019, 9:26 PM
I am thinking about this stuff and didn't know where to post it....

I am feeling weird about my son's situation. he is at a local rehab, a faith based recovery organization. we have only had 1 10 minute phone call in 4 weeks. on one hand, I know he is safe and I am able to get thru my days without thinking about him too much. Sometimes I do think and wonder how he is feeling. but I know he cant be the man he is supposed to be if he lives we us and mom and dad are hovering over him.... It works for many people, but not for families impacted by addition. I know he has to be independent and learn to live without us. I know we don't have the tools to do that. the recovery organization has the tools to show him how to live a sober life. I want to be part of the good things in his life, but he doesn't need me now, he needs the recovery center. I do know that everything we have done to help and give him a happy life is not forgotten. He does know it and appreciate it, but he also knows that the way he lived before can not go on, and the way we lived before can not go on. so we are all better apart, even though we all had good intentions, we cant live together.

mainly the problem of enabling - he knows we will give him things and he knows now that us giving him stuff (car insurance, etc) did not help him learn how to live and take care of himself. he knows if he lives with us, he will fall back into the pattern. WE know our part of the enabling and we know we will enable if he lives with us. so, it is not in anyone's best interest for our son to live at home.

None of it is either party's fault. we all did what we did bc that's what addiction does and that's what parents do... some part of it is in my son's personality - wants to live like he did in college - doesn't want to grow up and pay bills or be responsible for actions - peter pan syndrome comes to mind.

Maybe my son's personality is one that needed a different parenting style. one that had more boundaries and less help.

One more thing - Getting thru the emotions does take time. After 6 months of our son being out of the house, I have gained weight back, I am more relaxed, not crying every day, not feeling like I'm living in fear. not locking closet doors, not hiding my purse and credit cards. not in financial fear.

My son called his sister recently on her birthday. he sounded happy. said the organization will find sober living home for him to go to where he can start working, he might stay where he is until December. we have a family meeting scheduled next week.

Posted by: Sallyanna October 18, 2019, 11:34 PM
I think you are doing great NTF and sounds like your son is on the right path. He is where he needs to be. I find your posts very inspirational...thank you!

Posted by: mtnmom October 19, 2019, 10:20 AM
NY2FL - it is not a bad thing to feel relief with progress! You sound like a duplicate of me, like I see myself in you & your son's addiction. so hugs to you my kindred sister!

Posted by: NyToFlorida October 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Hugs to all of you for reading and sharing and working on getting your life back!

Posted by: Mimi5622 October 27, 2019, 12:08 AM
So happy for you and your son. There is hope now. 🤗

Posted by: mtnmom November 10, 2019, 10:39 PM
NY2FL - How are things going? How is your son?

Posted by: NyToFlorida November 13, 2019, 7:48 AM
Hello, my son was doing well until it was found that he had his hair clippers in his room. They are not allowed, need to be kept at the office. He was discharged without finishing the program. He was there 2 months. He called me to say he was being discharged, they would bring him to an emergency housing place. Later after work we tried to find him and did not. His phone is not able to be turned on. He didn’t ask to come home. He counselor suggested we might want to bring him home for a short time. We have all said that it won’t work. When I told his dad, dad said ‘pick him up’, he can come home, etc... I guess I should’ve told his dad right away, but I didn’t want to ruin his day at work.

I don’t know what to feel about this. I didn’t tell his dad right away bc I was afraid he would be yelling about it and I don’t want to hear it. And I wanted to stay focused at work. So I waited until I got off work. I didn’t think his dad would say for him to come home. I thought we are supposed to keep him out. So I was wrong when he lived home and I enabled him, now I am wrong to not bring him home. I don’t like being put in the spot to make the decision, and then I’m wrong.

He is in the same homeless situation was he was when he left 6 months ago.

I didn’t sleep much, feel awful, have to go to work. Hopefully he calls us.

We went to and called the shelters, sent him email, tried texting.

I know he is probably ok, and maybe he went to the old spots and found drugs. And maybe he will call us today. I think he is angry about what happened and does not want to be around his father.

Posted by: Sallyana November 13, 2019, 8:52 AM
NTF please be careful because you have come so far. I think your husband forgot what life was like living with your son. I think he forgot too how badly it was affecting you and your health. As you know, they are very resourceful and he's likely somewhere familiar. I know the feeling of fear when they go homeless and the temptation it creates to want to bring them home. Then, I usually watch the show Intervention on YouTube and see all the chaos those families are going through and how everyone suffers. It doesn't help. He had positive choices after he was kicked out if he wanted to make them. I'm sorry you are going through this. It's hard.

Posted by: Walkedon November 13, 2019, 3:13 PM
Ugh. Why do "counselors " say to take the AD back. Esp when the kick the Addicts for not following rules.
Stay strong.

Posted by: NyToFlorida November 13, 2019, 10:07 PM
Hello all, the roller coaster continues. I called the counselor this morning to find out exactly where he was dropped off. She said after talking to me in the morning, he decided to go to a shelter in NYC where there is another program that may get him to housing and job sooner. Sooo…. relief that he was not lost in our local community/city..

I'm feeling relief that this may be a turning point that he made an independent decision instead of coming back to our home where the same old stuff will play out. I'm sure he is not comfortable and it might be quite awful. he is not a city person and definitely not a shelter person. we hope whatever it is, it works out for him.

It is funny how in the last 24 hours I do not really know where my son is or how he is feeling. yet when I thought it was bad, I felt distraught. When I thought he is ok, I feel OK. yet his situation was the same. my perception of the situation makes me feel better or worse. He could be in a very yucky situation in nyc, but there could be a silver lining.

on the other hand, I saw no hope for him in the local city (to either be able to get on his feet or to not use drugs)

I am reacting based on what I have been told. I really don't know what situation my son will be in , in a week, month, or year...

thanks for listening!

Posted by: Parenting2 November 14, 2019, 2:07 AM
NY, what a stressful, awful situation. I can relate to the emotional roller coaster of being up and down, when the situation has not really changed. Last weekend, I had a mini-panic attack about some legal detail. Then, I realized I was not even right about what was going on. I hate that my moods are so tied to these crazy thoughts I have.

You did the right thing in focusing on work and not calling right away. We HAVE to do this for our own survival. It is never a good thing for an adult addict to move home. It seems a little harsh to kick him out for his clippers if he was clean. But, I know rules are rules.

It is a good sign that he did not call or reach out in terms of a change in focus. I hope NYC has a silver lining for him.

Take care of yourself. I am sorry that you and all of us have to endure this kind of stress.

Posted by: NyToFlorida November 16, 2019, 11:59 PM
Thank you all for the support.
Walkedon - lol - you are right. WE are supposed to use tough love and kick them out bc they make our lives unmanageable. then they kick him out - and suggest we should take him in for a short time bc a shelter wont be a good place for him. he was doing well - everything else about his progress and behavior was good - 6 months clean - (4 in jail - 2 at rehab)

our house is not a good place for him - there's no sober program, no transportation, no social interaction with peers, his whole existence at our house would be a bad reminder of failure - 24/7. I basically said that to the counselor.

so complicated in so many ways. I am trying to stay positive and not think about how miserable my son probably is. I wonder why he couldn't ask someone for a phone to at least text me a short message.... maybe there's nothing to say.