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|Message Board > Families / Partners of Addicts > Where's The Shame, Guilt Or Pride|
|Posted by: samegame July 12, 2019, 3:34 PM|
|Where's the shame, pride or guilt with the immoral and/or illegal acts many alkies and addicts commit. I wouldn't dream of asking people for a personal loan, buy or get me a cell phone or have someone pick me up like a soccer mom. I don't even want to get into the hardcore criminal acts like theft, breaking and entering, robberies. But just the lying, deceit, scamming etc on a regular basis would lead me to the top of a very high building or bridge.
Maybe not in the public square but is it time to stop apologizing and making excuses for drug and alcohol abuse. Shouldn't shame be attached to drug and alcohol abuse, especially when it starts costing people lives, health, criminal records, jobs etc. They must know what they do is wrong and frowned upon early on. Not just punished they must realized they will be viewed differently the rest of their lives with the label junky or alkie.
|Posted by: Sallyanna July 12, 2019, 7:03 PM|
|Addiction leads to moral bankruptcy|
|Posted by: NyToFlorida July 12, 2019, 8:29 PM|
|the lies, big and small add to their guilt, anxiety, stress. only thinking about a lie makes me stressed. I would not be able to sleep, I would always be nervous. If our addicted loved ones would stop lying, half of their stress would go away. Stop drinking caffeine, they would be able to sleep at a regular time... and so on...|
|Posted by: NyToFlorida July 12, 2019, 8:42 PM|
|Since the beginning of the year I started seeing/feeling that my son did not care about me or our relationship, that he cared about the money or groceries or gas I gave when his lies made me think he cared. as time went on I started to see thru it. he sat watching TV and talking until I gave him $20 and then he would leave....
my daughter spoke to him recently. she told him not to call us (parents) that we need a break. he should call his two sisters instead of us. he replied, "yeah, ok, I don't need a relationship with them". she didn't mean "no relationship" she meant 'stop asking us for things, stop leaning on us'
he sees it one and the same. that is where his brain is at. all or nothing.
I kind of see it as an addiction mentality, character trait - give me all you have or your nothing to me. or on payday - spend it all, then have nothing, feast and famine, dine out and party and then nothing at all..... week after week after week...
It is like they don't learn from week to week... my theory about that is that they are drugged and half asleep for most of their waking hours, so it is correct - they don't learn anything - do not remember things. If you cant remember yesterday, you can not correct your behavior accordingly.
maybe when they become sober, it is like waking up and too much to deal with and too much 'down time' with nothing to do.... easy to go back to sleep state, so they don't have to think about it.
|Posted by: NyToFlorida July 12, 2019, 8:50 PM|
|shame and stigma are another card to play. feel sorry for me, help me.|
|Posted by: Sallyanna July 12, 2019, 11:28 PM|
|Yes I agree. I think too addiction hijacks the mind. All brain functioning (reasoning, logic, problem solving, rational thought, etc...) goes to the addiction..keeping it alive and well. Its a severe altered state of functioning which one has to be brought out of. My opinion is its very, very powerful.|
|Posted by: samegame July 13, 2019, 3:52 PM|
|There several things I was trying to say but the main point is are we as a society too soft on hardcore drug and alcohol abuse. Especially when the individual and other parties have to endure the consequences of the addicts or alkies habits.
Decades ago when addicts were frequently referred to as junkies, that choice of words certainly helped me stay off drugs. And it holds true. Junkies produce nothing but junk lives. And drugs were called 'dope' for a reason because dopes were the ones abusing them or stupid stuff happens. Now it's 'you poor dear you have this contrived illness labeled by the rehab industry called 'addiction'. Even though you emptied granny's bank account, got fired from your job and got arrested intoxicated driving how about a hug. Give me a break, sure some people have experienced or seen some nasty stuff but even then do true 'victims' have the right to turn others into victims of crime and abusing behavior?
But again how come the alkies and addicts seem to have no shame or guilt? Arrested, suspended from school, jailed for drunk driving who cares. In the alkie's circle here a dui is considered a standard resume entry if not badge of honor but that's also a signal they like to drink/party.
If I didn't have the money I didn't buy it or do it. Now money is viewed as something as impersonal as pen or pencil. How many times do people return borrowed pens and pencils. In my time you didn't talk personal finances amongt friends or family unless it naturally came up. Here the alkie blatantly pries into to people's personal finances and affairs. He talks business as premise to pry all the time and for the most part does not get called out on it. One girl friend did call him on it and they broke up after he hit her parents up for a loan/business venture-after she said no money talk around parents. Decades ago he would've been considered rude & ignorant now 'oh he just likes to talk business'. it's like there's a total lack of respect & courtesy.
I also don't blame everything on the drugs. Alot addicts & alkies were already ethically challenged but at least could behave for perfunctory or legal reasons. Lack of impulse control is apparently common among many but they still had that impulse/those thoughts/process. But again they were already showing signs of criminal or unethical immoral behavior if you really think about.
Here he's always been about what ever it takes and one can get away with. It could be teenage immaturity since many addicts and drunks maturity stops at the age they started drinking/drugging.
Sometimes you just have to call addicts & alkies s out for what they are or what they did. No psychobabble, hugs, word spin just say like it is.
|Posted by: Sallyanna July 13, 2019, 4:12 PM|
|Respectfully samegame your points are your opinions. My opinion is most people don't set out to have an addiction...Most started out as decent people and it's the addiction that has ruined them...if they weren't addicted they would not be making bad choices over and over again. I don't see it (my opinion) as a character flaw. I think when they are not 'strung out' they do experience guilt and shame. Who the hell really wants to live like this??? Addiction is a trap that's really hard to get out of that's why sobriety rates are so low.|
|Posted by: Sallyanna July 13, 2019, 4:17 PM|
|I love my daughter I hate her addiction and what it's done to her and her life.|
|Posted by: NyToFlorida July 13, 2019, 6:03 PM|
|I know my son does feel guilt, shame, regrets. In his addicted mind he does not understand how life got this way. He sees how life looks easy for others but hard for him. Watching others have what he has not is depressing for him. It is a trick of the mind caused by long term use of the drugs. As Brandon norvak states “addiction is a disease that tells you, you don’t have a disease”
|Posted by: samegame July 13, 2019, 10:29 PM|
|Sallyanna. I wasn't challenging your opinion it was a reiteration. Apologies if I offended you.
I agree addiction makes things worse especially when it takes over or becomes the sole focus of one's life but to get to that point many of the things I brought up played a factor. I saw it here with family and in the work place. In the work place many of the employee who went down the full hardcore addict or alkie route already had bad attitudes, maybe they couldn't handle stress I don't know but I saw workplace rules and even the law ignored along with good safety habits. A few wound up being the low profile addict where they just trash their health, job, marriage, family but they never wind up stealing etc although one obviously got caught lying to/cheating on their spouse-which they were doing before full fledged addiction. The fact that they were willing to cheat on their spouse sober or more sober tells me something about the individual. It's not a crime but plays into character.
Here the alkie/addict is playing many of the same games a teenager would play to get over on parents and teachers and even though they were dabbling they were much more sober back then. The signs were there. His parents hoped age and time would temper/mature him. It did not and will not. This is why with the younger adults or teens it is essential they at least have some sober time because the longer they lead the drug life the longer that life will seem normal to them and will be incapable of realizing it's wrong because it is literally the only they know.
Maybe I've been hardened but I still see the same sneaky scamming juvenile delinquent family member who is basically an adult pos. His best friends/drinking buddies are half his age now. He is literally leading the life of an young 20 something if that as a half century old man. Every night is Saturday night as older adult except as a young adult/teen the next Saturday night/concert/party was the focus of his life-not homework, job, career or even hobbies, athletics. The signs were there as a youngster. Being an adult simply afforded him more time and money to lead that life.
Going back to the original post. One of things I was trying say is that many addicts and alkies seem to lack a conscience, a sense of shame, pride along with commonsense. If they had all or most of those things they wouldn't be where they're at. And these issues have to be pointed out when talking about addiction or the addict.
|Posted by: Sallyanna July 13, 2019, 11:49 PM|
|No worries samegame I wasn't offended I just didn't agree with you. I understand what you are saying. I just don't agree with your last paragraph of your last post. Unfortunately, some people's brains are wired for addiction. I can have 2 beers and stop. Someone with an alcohol addiction will keep drinking till they blackout or are just super drunk. They can't stop at 2 drinks as you well know. I just don't believe there is a positive correlation between a person's character and their addiction. In fact, I think there's no correlation at all. This is just my opinion based I what I know and have experienced. Samegame your posts are always great and thought provoking and I respect you very much.|
|Posted by: sad eyes July 14, 2019, 7:10 AM|
|I know my son hates how is life has turned out, he has said before ‘ don’t you think I want to be like my brothers, and be normal( whatever normal is), and days he is not the same person as he was, whether due to drug use, or people do change as they mature, I have seen my son from having a big circle of friends and always out to some one who has become a shell of himself, he never wanted this life , he made wrong choices in earlier years, some people can do drugs some people abuse drugs, then there’s the ones that get addicted, unfortunately area get addicted and that’s just there make up, the diesese are we making excuses for them, I don’t know, I think not, that’s just my thoughts, I wish we where all not having to try and sort this out, as it is all to hard, and I would love to put my energy into other things,|
|Posted by: sad eyes July 14, 2019, 7:18 AM|
|Ps I know my son is also very shameful about how things are, but at the end of the day he has to make the better choices in life, I can’t do this, i hope he eventually finds his path in life|
|Posted by: samegame July 14, 2019, 12:05 PM|
|I think many addiction battles are lost long before the throws of full fledged daily-24/7 addiction. It's the early to intermediate steps before daily drinking & drugging. It is during that time that things like pride, shame, guilt etc should kick in. If one has to 'ask' for money for anything let alone drugs shouldn't they be ashamed having to 'ask' for money especially as an adult. That very first burglary/theft should/would guilt most into constant anxiety as should the first lie, deception of a friend, family or employer. Where's one sense of pride when their peers are progressing through life completing school, working real adult jobs,advancing their career, buying their first home etc while they're doing drugs like a teenager and couch hopping or living at home as a 40 year old. Or their kids/step children are juvenile delinquents flunking school. That's what I saw here. The alkie's teen friends all not only progressed but enjoyed success because they matured left the party life behind. How can he not feel shame or lack of pride not advancing like his buddies. And this has been going for decades, he's a half century old. He's got to feel left behind or he did something wrong. Being the cool guy/big wig in a bar doesn't mean poop outside a party setting.
There's a reason they have sayings like "Can I bum a cigarette off you", don't smoke but I've seen it frequently among legal smokers many of whom are addicted. The key word is 'bum'. Decades ago no one wanted to be associated with a 'bum' now it's literally and figuratively a joke. I've even seen some say when are you going to start buying your own or Again? But it is those early/ intermediate steps where there is still some ability to think more clearly such as non intoxicated smoker. This is why I'm hard on character issues or things like shame or pride. This is also why I think many of those character or poor character issues that come out in force during full fledged addiction might not all be the chemical manufacturing them.
Somehow during times of sobriety/clarity or up bringing these issues need to be stressed.
|Posted by: Sallyanna July 14, 2019, 10:13 PM|
|Most addictions start developing when people are in their teens, late teens and most teens I know don't think about pride, shame, and guilt. I can tell you really dislike this guy. I'm not a smoker (quit at 25, now 60) and in college we would 'bum' cigarettes from each other all the time....I think I'm a nice person...|
|Posted by: samegame July 15, 2019, 1:18 AM|
|bum cigarettes off of each other...
That means there was reciprocation along with having something in common-smoking. Here if the alkie has borrowed or 'bummed' money off of family among others for a lifestyle the lender didn't care about.70% of the loan was never paid back. There was no reciprocation. It was one way-to him. It's that sense of entitlement. But again how come he doesn't want to be self sufficient or honorable-is it the lack of pride, shame of guilt?
|Posted by: Sallyanna July 15, 2019, 5:06 AM|
|I think based on everything you have written about him is he gets away with it and it's working for him. The people who loan him money are enablers. He doesn't feel remorse or guilt because in my opinion: 1) his addiction 2) he has no accountability because he's being enabled 3) if he has narcissistic personality disorder (which I don't know if he does or not) they have no empathy and don't feel guilty or remorse. 4) he's a user. It sounds like he's never matured into adulthood.|
|Posted by: samegame July 15, 2019, 8:06 AM|
|Sallyanna you described him perfectly. He is a user and abuser. Nobody here loans him money anymore but he flatout lied to family when borrowing over $25K years ago only paying a fraction of it back. We begged the lender to at least ask for small regular payments. But they acceptd his sob story. Found money to recreate and drink though. He feels the world owes him something The enabling as adult especially has given him a sense of entitlement. His older friends have slowly left him. His best friends are less than 1/2 his age which validates his behavior. His current girl friend has been a huge enabler for years preventing any chance of a bottom and rehab. His bottom will be the end, not rehab.|