Manipulation
Posted: May 23, 2017, 5:27 PM


Posts: 185
Joined: November 2, 2016



This was supposed to be in the family section. Could someone move this please? Thanks!

Hi all,

Please help save my sanity. ha.

I can tell when I am being obviously manipulated, but sometimes I wonder if I can tell when I am being subtly manipulated.

My kid obviously has drug and/or mental health issues. However, today, he was texting me that he was going to kill himself and he was texting that he was crying, etc. I had no reason not to believe him. When I called the school counselor to check on him, the counselor said he was in study hall laughing with his friends. Like, at the moment he was texting me!!! There was no reason to do this and he gets nothing out of it. I even stopped responding when he does this and he does not know I call the school counselor even (never sees the counselor checking either).

I seriously had the thought today that maybe my kid would be 100% better off without me in his life right now. Maybe I bring out the worst in him. (I don't mean suicidal, etc.). I mean, maybe he needs me to totally step away and let other people deal with him. Does this make sense?

This thing today made me feel like an utter idiot. The counselor and the school administration seem to think I am contributing to this behavior (or maybe I just feel that way-judged). They think he is getting his way, but he never gets his way behaving like this-he just keeps getting in more and more trouble. Anyway, I had this stop my tracks moment and just thought I need to leave him alone totally. Has anyone had a similar epiphany?

This post has been edited by Parenting on May 23, 2017, 11:57 PM
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 2:10 AM


Posts: 243
Joined: August 18, 2016



Just because he was laughing with his friends at the time of his text doesn't mean he was manipulating you. It is quite possible these are his actual feelings. As teenagers, they often show one "face" to their peers and another one, usually a more honest one, to their families.

Suicidal ideation should NEVER be ignored. It is not true that people who commit suicide do not talk about it first. Actually, almost everyone who actually tries suicide tells someone, sometimes jokingly, sometimes just in passing, but they almost always vocalize their wish to be dead.

I do not know if you are contributing to his behavior or not...no one here is qualified to say. However, you are his mom and you do not have the luxury of walking away (though, it might seem easier). It is your job to protect him from himself.

I would save the text messages and immediately have him evaluated. Take the text messages and take him to the emergency room for a psych evaluation. It is always better to over react than to be mourning your dead child. Even though he may "appear" to be ok, the fact that he is talking about suicide should be taken seriously. People who are emotionally healthy do not make such statements and so his mental health needs to be evaluated.

As for his behavior gtiing him in trouble, sometimes kids act out because they feel that negative attention beats the alternative of feeling invisible. I am not implying you are ignoring him, but teenagers aften feel alone or misunderstood and those with co-occuring addiction or mental illness are even more likely to experience those feelings.

Go get help immediately! His very life could quiet possibly depend on it! We are here if you need us!
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 10:18 AM


Posts: 635
Joined: April 4, 2016



Parenting . . .sending big hugs . . .gosh, you brought back some memories of when my daughter was in high school.

I concur with Lolle . . . have him evaluated. . . suicide is nothing to take lightly . . .as is depression and/or addiction. Based upon that I might look at therapeutic boarding or day schools. He can get the help he needs in an environment that is more structured than most parents can provide, with 24 hour supervision and still graduate on time.

We made the difficult decision to send our daughter to such a school in her sophomore year of high school. We had already done the psychiatric hospital, Teen AA, groups, family therapy, individual therapy, IOP, partial hospitalization . . . hell, we put bells on our front door so that we could hear her leave the house . . . one of us would sleep on the sofa downstairs and the other would sleep upstairs. She was diagnosed with ADD, depression, alcoholism and pill addiction at the time. She was running away. She had already made a suicide attempt (hence the psychiatric hospital). She was out of control . . .and needed 24 hour supervision, behavior modification, to detox, to get away from the folks she was hanging out with.

We found a religious boarding school for troubled teens in the hinterlands of West Virginia, a 9 hour drive. We didn't just drive her there, give her kisses and say "bye bye" . . . we didn't just throw her away. We were involved in her life . . .albeit differently. We went to every Parents' Weekend, which was once a month . . . and we talked and wrote. After a few months, she earned the privilege of coming home more frequently, or us going down there more than once a month. We did all kinds of therapy while we were there . . . as well as by phone/skype. Don't know if you have considered therapeutic boarding school, or summer camp, or whatever may be available. Perhaps you can find one that will meet both your and your son's needs.

No matter what . . . hang in there, Mama. Your son is still a minor . . .a baby. Don't stop fighting for your baby yet. Get your baby some immediate help. . .and some long term help, too. And, get some support for you, too!!

Sending Hugs,
Lynn

--------------------

I forgot to read the fine print, when i signed up to be your Mom. I thought it would be smiles & hugs and quite a lot of fun.

I didn’t see the part about addiction, mental illness, pain, hopelessness or despair. I didn’t know life could be so flipping unfair.

But I now see something in the fine print that I didn’t see before. It also says to survive your addiction, I must love me more.


In Loving Memory of my angel, J. #forever21 #ihateaddiction #foreverloved
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 11:46 AM


Posts: 185
Joined: November 2, 2016



Hi guys,

Thank you. I do take it seriously. He always says this when I will not give him something. I have had the police do a wellness twice when I was at work. He actually told one of the officers, "My Mom is so gullible, she is a f---- idiot." He also says he is going to kill me quite often. But, when anyone else shows up (police, family) to help, he acts very calm and says he never said any of that. He is quite convincing. One time he actually poked me hard when the police officer turned his back.

He only does this to immediate family. I did have the counselor evaluate him twice. And, of course, he called to say that my son is an absolute gem and doing really well. Also, the police have told me he is not suicidal and that he is a manipulator. Which does not rule out he would actually do it at some point or "fake it" but succeed, but how would I ever stop it???? I cannot give him what he wants 24/7.

He absolutely refuses help, even threatening to jump out of the car (and I believe he would do it). I have contacted everyone I can think of about forcing him somewhere and they all say it would not work (for a variety of reasons). it is really frustrating because one agency told me I have the power to force the police or EMT to take him. So, I set it all up when he was saying these things----they refused to take him because their assessment showed zero risk.

It is hard because I am his Mom and I have been in the trenches now for awhile. He is an absolute abusive, obnoxious person to me almost every moment. The only reason my sister is onboard now is she overheard him one day. She was horrified. This is way more than normal teen stuff. I think it is time for us to get some distance. I cannot save him from himself-it only seems to push him more towards crashing on these peoples' couches.

I think he has a serious mental disorder, maybe anti-social or borderline. It is not possible to have a relationship with him at this point. Very sad and frustrating. His thinking is severely messed up.

Thanks for listening.
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 11:53 AM


Posts: 185
Joined: November 2, 2016



Also, I appreciate the advice on boarding schools. They won't take him either because he is too close to 18 or because they determine he would just run away. Apparently, close to 18, they have trouble controlling them also.

I have offered sweet deal to him. Things I would have loved in high school! Travel or therapeutic schools that look awesome, but of course, he refuses and says he would do whatever he could to escape.

Obviously, addiction issues also. So, nothing is as attractive as his drugs.
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 11:55 AM


Posts: 733
Joined: October 5, 2015



Hi P, I'm sorry but I can't remember how old your son is or what drugs he's experimenting with? First of all I wanted to tell you that any dealings I had with school counselors was a waste of time. They weren't interested enough and I think drugs was out of their comfort zone and they were at a loss for what to do. My daughter was fine until she got into high school. If I had thought she was going to get into drugs in high school I would never have sent her there. I know how you feel P as I've felt the same as you many times. I would take him somewhere to speak to a professional. Maybe it's the peer pressure he has with his friends to do drugs that's making him feel like this. Maybe he feels trapped and he's texting you as his cry for help. He can't ask his friends for help because chances are their all on drugs too. My daughter use to talk about suicide at times, still does! Drugs mess with their emotions and get them confused. I ended up pulling my daughter out of high school her senior year. I had enough and she went and got a GED and then a job. But here I am 18 yrs later and she's still on drugs. So I think I wasn't quick enough or I didn't know enough to help her. Looking back I think if I was a mother now with kids going into high school I'd pull them out and home school them. I hope things get better for you. You should go talk to someone yourself who can help you with all this worry too. Take care. Mary.
PS, I just read your last post about him not wanting help. Throw him out!! Let him see how it is to live in the real world when you have a drug habit. You shouldn't have to put up with his abuse. Enough s enough! I'm sorry P you sound like a nice mom too. But we all were at one time until drugs ruined our lives. It's just awful P, I've been where you are and I'm here for you now. Mary.

This post has been edited by Mandm on May 25, 2017, 12:13 PM
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 12:24 PM


Posts: 185
Joined: November 2, 2016



THANK YOU SO MUCH. It helps to know I am not alone. His Dad & I both have been going through shock/disbelief/emotional roller coaster since he turned 17 last fall. But, at some point, you get burned so many times....he's like a porcupine!

I agree that he needs to get the boot. We're waiting til he turns 18. Its so SAD and disgusting.
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 12:51 PM


Posts: 733
Joined: October 5, 2015



What drugs is he taking? Mine was taking heroin!! Now that's as bad as it gets! Pot is bad but I think there's hope for ones that do pot to grow up and come off it. What does your husband suggest to do? Can I ask why are you waiting until he's 18 to throw him out? Is it because he's got school to go to? School when their doing drugs like heroin is a waste of time. That's why I'm wondering what drug he is doing? It wouldn't make any difference to me him 18 or 16 if he's abusive and thinks he can rule the roost I'd show him the door. He'll learn in a couple of days or so which side his bread is buttered on and come crawling home with a better attitude. They miss their creature comforts because we have an age of spoiled brats on our hands. Give him no money or any luxuries anymore. If he has a car, take it away from him. If you pay his phone, stop paying it! He doesn't deserve any help from you with the way he treats you. Good Luck P. Mary.

This post has been edited by Mandm on May 25, 2017, 1:04 PM
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 1:18 PM


Posts: 185
Joined: November 2, 2016



Hi Mary,

What type of drug is a mystery. I know he smokes a lot of pot. He claims that is all he does. I did drug test him twice in his life and only showed pot. But, one time, he offered-----hmmmm. I suspect he is doing other things. But, who knows?

The way we understand the law is we cannot kick him out until he turns 18. Not sure.

One of the things that scares me so about his future: He has not been able to drive since we found out what he was doing and running off, etc. We stopped paying for his school lunch, phone, and most of his incidentals. (Although I admit, we take him to doctor, dentist, haircut, and sometimes buy him clothes). You would think he would want to drive!!! But, no. And, nothing seems to reach him. His behavior is kind of like a drug fiend sort of obsession right now...

I hope someday he wakes up. I know he really struggles with his own brain and thoughts. I do feel for him, but he has burned me so many times and just seriously shocked me to death with his evil comments that I have pulled away. I am glad I no longer feel sorry for him, because he was just taking advantage of those types of feelings. Like my best friend said, "What haven't you done for this kid??". It is time to pull back.

I am very nice and probably too nice and understanding. In my early 20s I realized I just cannot be around manipulative people. I am very careful who I let in my life, because I am very sensitive. I cannot believe that I have a son like this. You know? Unreal that I am sort of stuck with this really evil person. I do plan on filing a restraining order when he turns 18. I cannot handle it at all anymore.

On a positive note, I was sitting in my despair after my post about driving off to oblivion (ha ha), and realized that I have to DO SOMETHING really drastic to get me out of this. So, I started going to the gym and hitting it hard (like when I was young!). It has helped tremendously and helped me focus on something other than this kid.

I just have to let him go, let him know I love him and that if he ever wants help I will be here for him in spades. I did text him something like this and guess what his answer was? " F--- you, b----". What is this craziness???? I know he is hanging around some really aggressive, abusive people. Guess he is picking it up there. See if they are there for him when we kick him out. : (

Thanks all. So overwhelming and it helps so much to have this place.
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 1:31 PM


Posts: 733
Joined: October 5, 2015



I think you've done everything I would have done to try and help him. I wouldn't care what the rules are about him living with you to a certain age. I'd be damned if id put up with him texting messages like that. Who does he think he is that he can talk like that to you. Again, been there!! Next time he tells you to fxxx off tell him to and not to bother coming to the house because he's gone and you intend to call the police. See how that works for him. I've even changed my phone numbers and the peace I got was so great! Police nowadays know what like kids are when their on drugs. If it helps you, go talk to the police and ask them, show them his texts and say your frightened of him too. Because it is scary! If the authorities don't want you to throw him out let them take custody of him and he can go live in foster care. There's other kids out there that aren't 18. Worse thing is for you to do is, don't feel sorry for him!! Play hard ball with him. Good your going to the gym ..it does help! Take care P. I'm real sorry your going through this. Mary.

This post has been edited by Mandm on May 25, 2017, 1:34 PM
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 1:36 PM


Posts: 185
Joined: November 2, 2016



Mary! Giant hugs!!!

Thank you so much and everyone here.

I needed to hear that!!!!

<3 <3 (Supposed to be hearts)

This post has been edited by Parenting on May 25, 2017, 1:36 PM
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 5:20 PM


Posts: 733
Joined: October 5, 2015



P, read up on that fake pot called "Spice" it causes rage. I hope he's not doing any of these hard drugs but there all addictive even pot. Mary.🌻
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 6:22 PM


Posts: 635
Joined: April 4, 2016



Ok P . . . can't blame you if you throw him out . . .all of us have our limits . . .you are his mom . . .not his personal door mat or punching bag. . . giving our kids unconditional love does not mean that we have to take any old crap that they hand out. Only you can say when you are done . . .when you've had enough. Whatever you decide, we will be 1000% behind you.

BUT . . . don't want your decision to come back to bite you in the a** To protect yourself legally . . . before you throw him out . . .please go to court and file a motion (or application) to have him emancipated . . .at least put the paperwork in . . .it may take a minute in my state you have to show that he is independent and capable of living separate and apart . . .or beyond the scope of parental influence and control. Many state court websites have self-help kits for folks that do not have attorneys. If yours does not, take a trip to your local court, someone there will be able to help you fill out the forms (although they will probably not be able to give you legal advice.) By going this route you will legally not be responsible for any of his bills or anything that he does even though he is still chronologically a minor because according to the Courts he is independent from you. Also, you will never have to worry about DYFS or anyone even suggesting that you abandoned him, or endangered the welfare of a minor, or any of that other stuff.

While he is close to 18 (you didn't say how close), you may have another option . . . Here's one . . .making him a ward of the state. That is, you would sign over some/all of your parental rights & place him in the care of the state. I'm not sure what your rights and responsibilities will be if you take this step. Consult with a lawyer. If you are unable to afford one, you may be able to receive legal assistance through your county's legal aid society. Or, your human/social services department may have information.

Making him a ward of the state is a pretty major decision and not easily undone. Some states have a program where you work with social services to have your child live some place else, but you don't give up your rights and can pull the child out if you change your mind. Please call your social/human services department. I've heard this program called "parental placement." Don't worry about what it is called. But perhaps it is worth a call to see what options you may have.

Finally, you may be able to get help and services if he is found to be a Child in Need of Services or Supervision. Here, you would need to go to court . . . generally family court.

I don't mean to add to your stress . . .or agnst . . .or things to do list. But if you go down this road, PROTECT YOURSELF!!!

Sending hugs,
Lynn
xoxo

--------------------

I forgot to read the fine print, when i signed up to be your Mom. I thought it would be smiles & hugs and quite a lot of fun.

I didn’t see the part about addiction, mental illness, pain, hopelessness or despair. I didn’t know life could be so flipping unfair.

But I now see something in the fine print that I didn’t see before. It also says to survive your addiction, I must love me more.


In Loving Memory of my angel, J. #forever21 #ihateaddiction #foreverloved
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 8:05 PM


Posts: 304
Joined: August 3, 2016



Hi P,
Im so sorry you are going through this. My son started at 13 smoking pot, then pills, then he OD on 3 bottles of cough syrup and was in intensive care for 3 days. We too have done everything.......Dealing with school, counselors, finding a mentor, taking parenting classes, psychologist, psychiatrist, etc. First rehab was at 14.......and it has only gotten worse. His dad passed away 2 years ago and it got even worse with meth, heroin, wet, etc.
I refuse to give up bit after going to Alanon meetings and our family on this site......I choose to take care of me now. I was addicted to my son and it was driving me crazy...I couldn't sleep and was a wreck.
I will say this.....God has a plan and today my son is in his 14th rehab and moving to a structured sober living tomorrow. He has been clean 30 days. Ive had my son back for those days and he has apologized and told me how much he loves me. I choose to cherish every moment because it could change in minutes. If it does, he will always know I love him but will no longer enable him.I don't get angry and scream! Why???? because they are sick.....they don't want this.

As suggested previously, it does sound like he may have tried spice because that doesn't show on a drug test. Spice is awful!!!!!!My son was on that as well. I feel your pain. Its stressful!!
Would RUN to an Alanon meeting and hopefully your husband will go so y'all can be on the same page. He needs to understand this is your home and he needs to follow your rules. I agree with Lynn to take care of yourself legally but once he is 18...out the door. It is not easy so be prepared.

We are all here for you so you are in a good place. Sad that we all are in this place! But, God has a plan and I truly think that my sons addiction has brought me closer to God. Have faith over worry and let God take it from here.

Hugs and Prayers,
Paula
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 8:52 PM


Posts: 733
Joined: October 5, 2015



Hi P, I'm sure there are rules you have to follow. When my kid is back talking me and cursing me. I don't care what age he or she is, rules or no rules I'm throwing her out. But as spoiled as these kids are nowadays they'll be back begging to come home again in no time. Good luck, Mary 🌻

Paula....So glad to hear Z is doing good. It sure was rough going for a long while when he was on that Wet. I was scared for him because of where he was and what was happening to him. Thank God he's on the right path again. Im glad your doing better now too. Z definitely has a guardian angel looking out for him. Take care Paula, good to see you! Mary🌻
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 9:00 PM


Posts: 1584
Joined: June 27, 2016



Hi Parenting - ditto everything HM said. also you can save your text messages - on an iphone - double click on the message, copy/more, lower right arrow - send to your email account.

As HM said in a different post - keep a calendar and write down notes of what happens each day so you have documentation. I have done this - it keeps you sane - so everything is not just in your head.

dont tell him about restraining order - you dont want him to react violently against you. Keep yourself safe - rarely be alone w him. dont respond to the text messages - when you do that is positive reinforcement - or negative reinforcement - if your husband is not home, go to a friend or relative's house. he is unpredictable. if you are alone, at first sign of his manipulation, leave the house. or just leave whenever he is there. "oh! I'm going to the gym!"

It must be confusing and sad for you to be the one he manipulates and is violent towards. It may be that you are the most sane and he needs to keep you afraid so you dont ruin his 'fun'.

all and all - not normal - might be influenced by the drugs he takes. I totally agree you have to remove yourself from him. only then will he understand what he has lost. and then, give yourself a time line to stick to - such as no contact for 6 mo or a year. a few weeks will not teach him anything.

dont worry about what he has missed or lost - he does not care - when he does care enough, he can obtain those things for himself. (phone car etc)


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Posted: May 25, 2017, 9:07 PM


Posts: 1584
Joined: June 27, 2016



Paula - Happy to hear Z is out of that mess. As much as you can try to 'make' him stay in sober living for as long as possible. I suggest a year. my son was not using the drugs Z was and was compliant in rehab/sober living for 3 months, and then again for 5 months, then spent four sober months w sister, and still would relapse when ever on his own. he is home and working but I suspect is still dabbling. stays at a gf house most nights. which is fine, we can relax around the house. my point is that they need a long sober time to get past it, but after a short sober time, they think they can manage it.... you must be getting some good sleep now!
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 11:29 PM


Posts: 185
Joined: November 2, 2016



Thanks all. This is so very difficult as you all know.

I think he does push me away because I don't do drugs and don't really even drink much. I had my day in high school, but quit/settled down pretty much when I turned 19. He tells me all the time that there are cool parents, that let them do drugs and drink, etc. He tells me these parents think I am crazy and a goody-two-shoes. I really am not, but I am aware enough to know that the path he and they are on is not a happy one. Many of the parents have police records themselves. I thought that talking with a couple of the moms would help when this first started but they wouldn't even come to the door (pretend not to be home). They lie about if my son is there, cover for him. One of the boys told me that he wished he had a mom who cared like me. I thought to myself, I wish I had a son who wanted a mom like me! :(

Honestly, it completely breaks my heart at times, but I know for sure that my pain is not a concern of his. So, I am trying SO hard to think of him as a person and not my son. I would not put up with this crap from anyone else. At this time in his life, he truly does not care about me or can't have me around because I interfere with his habit.

All I can do is try to stay in the moment and try very hard to enjoy little moments. I need to detach. It is so painful sometimes. But, I know I need to. And, I cannot be in someone's life unless they want me there.

Plus, on some level, he is just throwing tantrums and being a bully. If he does not stop that behavior, what is the point? Like someone said, I am not his punching bag.

I go through times where I cry about it still, but I guess that is normal. Tonight, I was very sad (overly tired). I went for a walk and tried hard to just look at the clouds and the trees, etc. It made me feel better. I thought that I gave him a good childhood, lots of fun times. And, I was willing to help him with whatever path he wanted to take. And, he knows that. So, that is all I can really say about it at this point. I did my job. And, he will be 18 in about 3 months. So, my job is really moving to another place.

It is hard to let go!!! But, being here helps. And, I know I can't let him treat me like this. If he cannot or will not change, he cannot be in my life. : (

Thanks for being here everyone! Life is good, and I have tried hard to make the best of a very rocky life myself with lots of challenges and family deaths. I gotta be tough!! :)
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Posted: May 25, 2017, 11:35 PM


Posts: 454
Joined: August 4, 2015



Parenting,
I can relate to all you're going through. Our son has been extremely violent in the past and has hurt himself and
/or tried to commit suicide a few times. The very first time he sliced his wrist open, it was because I wouldn't stop bugging him to get up for school (his words). After that, we knew he would do just about anything to spite us. He's been diagnosed with all the typical nowadays diagnosed...ADD, depression, anxiety. The "good" psychiatrists would give him meds, which he would abuse. He would take a whole months worth of Adderall in five days, got very addicted to Klonopin. It seemed to be one big game to him. The counselors, probation officers, and any other professionals he saw would all basically wash their hands , of him after a time. He quit school at 16. At that time, we were told that no one would make him go to school but that we were responsible for his care until he turned 18. That was fine. We called the police any and every time he got violent. I don't have any great advice. I've spent almost seventeen years dealing with our son and he's not much different than he's always been except now it's primarily heroin. I don't give him the opportunity to be violent because I will not let him live with us ever again. You aren't alone at all. I understand what you go through.
Hugs

This post has been edited by Shell2639 on May 25, 2017, 11:35 PM

--------------------
Michelle
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Posted: May 26, 2017, 7:33 PM


Posts: 60
Joined: March 13, 2017



Hi p I'm sorry you're going through this. So awful you don't deserve this.
P you say he tells you he is going to kill you. Really. Mom that is awful. You don't deserve that. Big tough guy threaten his moM he's going to kill her.
Next time he does that call the police and insist on pressing charges. When he's sitting in county lockup he won't feel so tough. Mom protect yourself. All your son cares about is getting high. That's fine. Kick him out and make him support himself.
Your happiness is important. I can tell you a lesson that took me 14 years to learn is the following.
Unconditional love is bullish..
Time goes by quickly and if you don't stop enabling him and putting up with his atrocious behavior
15 years will go by and nothing will get better.
My son is recovering, and only
because I got tough. Yes I'll say it again, unconditional love is BS
Oh there may be people who disagree, but I could care less
HAVE A NICE HOLIDAY WEEKEND
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