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Posts: 243
Joined: August 18, 2016
Posted: November 26, 2016, 12:45 PM
Sorry that your daughter is struggling. May I ask how old she is? It is always devestating when a relapse happens so soon after treatment, but it is a common occurance when dealing with opioid addiction.
What is her rehab like. I have to disagree a bit with the above post. AA/NA is a wonderful support group, but it is NOT treatment. If she is in a place that is just a glorified 12 step meeting, she is probably not getting what she needs to stay clean. Treatment should include one on one counseling by a licensed therapist who is familiar with treating addiction. Often, addicts have mental health issues that they are self-medicating with drugs/alcohol that need to be addressed before any meaningful sobriety can happen. If she has experienced any trauma, especially sexual abuse/rape (which is all too common, unfortunately) this will have to be addressed too. Just stopping the drug is but step one...but as is often said, A journey of a thousand miles starts with one step Her aftercare plan should include a support group such as AA/NA or one of the many alternatives such as Smart reovery, Rational Recovery, SOS etc or a religious support group such as Celebrate recovery. If she continues to relapse, she might have better success with MAT (medication-assisted recovery) with methadone or suboxone, which are both very effective! Hopefully, they will set her up with a good aftercare plan. It is ultimately up to her though. You can want it for her till the cows come home, but you can't make her want it! It is always painful for the family of addicts to watch the train wreck happen. Just remember that you are not strong enough to stop a moving train!! The only one who can stop the train, is the driver!(your daughter) Keep your head up and never give up hope! We do recover..but it is her recovery..she has to do the work...you can't do it for her. All you can do is stop enabling(if you are), and detatch with love! Keep reading here...lots of great advice! Good luck and I will keep you in my thoughts!! | ||
Posts: 2616
Joined: January 4, 2008
Posted: November 26, 2016, 1:21 PM
All the therapy...one on one...rehab...and recovery programs in the world will not do a damn thing if we don't want it....in my humble opinion ...after detox...i need simple...too much recovery makes me want to escape and use after awhile...I like AA and/or NA...maybe cuz nothing any therapist ever told me about why I use ever kept me from using...but to each their own....MMT actually was the only thing that ever kept me clean....the trade off was harsh...but it was fair....
Con | ||
Posts: 1906
Joined: October 23, 2011
Posted: November 26, 2016, 1:29 PM
lolleedee:
I would really like to agree with you but then we'd both be wrong. Good luck. Bob -------------------- Serenity Prayer God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, The courage to change the things I can, And the wisdom to know the difference. Free copy of AA's Big Book on-line: http://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/alcoh...olics-anonymous Free copy of NA's Big Book on-line: Copy & Paste coastalcarolinaarea.org/literature/books/b_t.pdf AA's HOW IT WORKS: Copy & paste www.aa.org/assets/en_US/p-10_howitworks.pdf NA's HOW IT WORKS: http://www.na.org/admin/include/spa...0it%20Works.pdf ---------------------------------------------------------------- --- driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity. ---there are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. ... I need AA more than it needs me. --- I fight recovery tooth and nail.... I'm not used to being sane, it just doesn't seem natural. ...... According to the great spiritual teachers, ignorance does not result from what we don’t know; ignorance results from what we think we do know. ---Some think that 2+2=5 and believe it. Some know that 2+2=4 and can't stand it. --- I didn't have a very happy childhood but I sure am having a long one ! ---Dry since 1989 working daily on getting/staying SOBER. ---If you want to drink, that's your business ...If you want to quit, that's AA's business. ... Tell me, I'll forget; ... Show me, I'll remember; ... Engage me, I'll understand. ---Most problems are psychological. Most solutions are spiritual . "If we try to change our ego with the help of our ego, we only have a better-disguised ego." --Richard Rohr WWBWD (What Would Bill W. Do) | ||
Posts: 529
Joined: October 15, 2016
Posted: November 26, 2016, 8:36 PM
you said its not working I mean rehab? Do yu know why is that? What does hse tells you, obviusly something needs tyo change not only the way how she thinks but the help she was getting until now, maybe its time for new approach whatever that may be. Is she young? How many months is she in that last rehab? she is still there ? She cant stay clean one she leaves or she has problem staying clean while in rehab? please can you give us bit more info on situacion your daughter is in
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Posts: 243
Joined: August 18, 2016
Posted: November 27, 2016, 3:50 PM
@Papa Bear, I don't know how you can possibly disagree with dealing with mental health conditions (bi-polar, schizophrenia etc) and trauma (such as sexual abuse and rape) with a therapist versed in addictions and following that up with support of AA/NA or other supports. Doesn't AA say some need outside help? I would think a staunch supporter like yourself would agree.
I also wish you good luck in your recovery. I feel like your responses to me (and mine to you...I'm not innocent, here)are detracting from the board. I'm not going to engage and debate with you any longer. I respect and applaud your recovery and I hope you can continue to support the board and everyone's individual recovery, even if, or especially if, it is different from yours. However, these slight "jabs" and one-upmanship, aren't conducive to my recovery or the recovery I want to demonstrate to others. This post has been edited by lolleedee on November 27, 2016, 3:54 PM | ||
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Posts: 2616
Joined: January 4, 2008
Posted: November 27, 2016, 4:54 PM
I really wish you both would stop....PB...you've been around here a long time...and I'm use to you...you share your experience from a AA NA perspective...and I have never felt especially bothered or forced by your shares. .however....Lollie...I do get an undercurrent of defensive attitude maybe from some of your posts In regards to PB and 12 steps...I have no problem with MMT ..nor any other type of recovery processes...and I know where your coming from...been there...did that...saved my miserable life....but I do feel like there is a not so subtle quarrel going on...and.this is so not a competition. ..im a junkie...quickest way to find me and most like me gone...which you both should know...is to keep this type of crap up...please ...we're all fighting for our lives here ...you want to help...just share your experience without criticism ...keep it simple....please
Peace to you both Con This post has been edited by constantine on November 27, 2016, 4:55 PM | ||
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Posts: 1906
Joined: October 23, 2011
Posted: November 27, 2016, 4:55 PM
You stated above: "" AA/NA is a wonderful support group, but it is NOT treatment."I
It is obvious to anyone who has worked the 12 Steps and recovered from those "grave emotional and mental disorders" that AA/NA is EXACTLY what is needed and nothing more. You do not know (have not experienced because you have not "thoroughly followed our path") yet you persist in telling others here what AA/NA can & cannot do. YOU HAVE NO IDEA !! Tell folks what you are doing and leave your opinions of AA/NA out of it and you'll have no problem with me. Good luck. Bob This post has been edited by Papa Bear on November 27, 2016, 4:56 PM -------------------- Serenity Prayer God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, The courage to change the things I can, And the wisdom to know the difference. Free copy of AA's Big Book on-line: http://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/alcoh...olics-anonymous Free copy of NA's Big Book on-line: Copy & Paste coastalcarolinaarea.org/literature/books/b_t.pdf AA's HOW IT WORKS: Copy & paste www.aa.org/assets/en_US/p-10_howitworks.pdf NA's HOW IT WORKS: http://www.na.org/admin/include/spa...0it%20Works.pdf ---------------------------------------------------------------- --- driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity. ---there are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. ... I need AA more than it needs me. --- I fight recovery tooth and nail.... I'm not used to being sane, it just doesn't seem natural. ...... According to the great spiritual teachers, ignorance does not result from what we don’t know; ignorance results from what we think we do know. ---Some think that 2+2=5 and believe it. Some know that 2+2=4 and can't stand it. --- I didn't have a very happy childhood but I sure am having a long one ! ---Dry since 1989 working daily on getting/staying SOBER. ---If you want to drink, that's your business ...If you want to quit, that's AA's business. ... Tell me, I'll forget; ... Show me, I'll remember; ... Engage me, I'll understand. ---Most problems are psychological. Most solutions are spiritual . "If we try to change our ego with the help of our ego, we only have a better-disguised ego." --Richard Rohr WWBWD (What Would Bill W. Do) | ||
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Posts: 243
Joined: August 18, 2016
Posted: November 27, 2016, 5:01 PM
@Con...I agree with you too. I also found recovery with MAT (more specifically, methadone), too. I was perplexed because I found recovery from bulimia years ago in OA(overeaters Anonymous) and continue to work this program today. However, it did nothing to help me with my opioid addiction.
I understand the need to keep early recovery simple. This time around, I had a wise counselor tell me to get stable on methadone for a year...a solid year, before tackling the other issues. The first year, I kept it simple and focused on stability, not using on top and the mundane task of showering every day, making the bed etc. These things seem simple to the non-addict, but for that first year, it was all I could handle. The following year, I added additional therapy and an addict support group. It was that year of stability...A solid year of no other drugs that finally, after many, many years in active addiction, FINALLY, got my foot in the door of recovery. There are no easy answers, unfortunately. There are as many theories of the disease/disorder and many pathways to recovery...but easy ways...nope! This post has been edited by lolleedee on November 27, 2016, 5:02 PM | ||
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Posts: 2616
Joined: January 4, 2008
Posted: November 27, 2016, 5:12 PM
Lollie...great...PB...I kind of took a little offense at the treatment statement too...I agree ...Lollie... .MMT does help opiate addiction in that it stops the criminal and drug seeking behaviors....as well as the craving and rattle...it is not a cure however and when you decide..if you ever do...to get off it...that even with therapy etc...you will get that better than you maybe do now ...don't know...anyways...you both are right in various ways...maybe take this over to methadone board or other for a discussion on recovery vs. recovery...kind of like spy vs spy...ya know ?
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Posts: 243
Joined: August 18, 2016
Posted: November 27, 2016, 5:13 PM
@Papa bear....Unfortunately you are misunderstanding me. Perhaps you missed my post of my participation in a 12 step group? OA was instrumental in my recovery from bulimia. (I mentioned it in a few other posts)My support of AA/NA is absolute. I have found other 12 step programs also,to be nothing but helpful and I advocate everyone doing what they feel is best! However, I will never tell someone who is struggling not to find help...even if it is different from the help you so passionately advocate for. It was only a "suggestion" to the original poster. That said, there most certainly are grave emotional and mental disorders that need outside help. Outside help when needed is advocated in AA/NA so I do not understand why you would deny someone care. It doesn't in anyway "take away" or "diminish" the AA/NA message or the miracles one sees in the rooms.
As I said in my above post, I post about what works for me(and I am only speaking for myself) and I hope you can use what you have most certainly learned in the rooms to "take what you like and leave the rest." This "discussion" is unfortunately what dicides the recovery community and it leaves an us against them mentality and I think that is not only unfortunate, but leaves a bunch of addicts out in the cold. As I have REPEATEDLY said, I advocate for whatever works for the individual! Let's just support each other instead of taking pot- shots....In my book, that isn't sober behavior. This is the last you will hear from me on this matter. @CON..This is my seond time on MMT...the first was about ten years ago. I did a slow taper...it was pretty painless...the last 20mg weren't fun..but it was doable! I wasn't on long enough that time and NEVER stabilized...I was using on top the entire time. Trying to do it differently this time. Who knows how that will turn out..There but for the grace of God go I! Opioids, by their chemical make-up are a beast unto themselves. That's why I think we need to advocate for whatever works! BTW...I am new to this board but have already mnaged to fall in love with your directness and humor! I enjoy all your posts! :) This post has been edited by lolleedee on November 27, 2016, 5:27 PM | ||
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Posts: 1906
Joined: October 23, 2011
Posted: November 27, 2016, 5:35 PM
"Let's just support each other instead of taking pot shots....In my book, that isn't sober behavior." You think I'm taking "pot shots" at you. I'm not taking pot shots at YOU. I'm saying you are posting things here that are WRONG ... things you know nothing about. And I'm not sure if you aren't aware that you don't know or don't care. I don't care what you think about my sobriety - I can't/won't "support you" when you are off base. What does your sponsor say about your post "AA/NA is not treatment" ?? -------------------- Serenity Prayer God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, The courage to change the things I can, And the wisdom to know the difference. Free copy of AA's Big Book on-line: http://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/alcoh...olics-anonymous Free copy of NA's Big Book on-line: Copy & Paste coastalcarolinaarea.org/literature/books/b_t.pdf AA's HOW IT WORKS: Copy & paste www.aa.org/assets/en_US/p-10_howitworks.pdf NA's HOW IT WORKS: http://www.na.org/admin/include/spa...0it%20Works.pdf ---------------------------------------------------------------- --- driven by a hundred forms of fear, self-delusion, self-seeking, and self-pity. ---there are those too who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. ... I need AA more than it needs me. --- I fight recovery tooth and nail.... I'm not used to being sane, it just doesn't seem natural. ...... According to the great spiritual teachers, ignorance does not result from what we don’t know; ignorance results from what we think we do know. ---Some think that 2+2=5 and believe it. Some know that 2+2=4 and can't stand it. --- I didn't have a very happy childhood but I sure am having a long one ! ---Dry since 1989 working daily on getting/staying SOBER. ---If you want to drink, that's your business ...If you want to quit, that's AA's business. ... Tell me, I'll forget; ... Show me, I'll remember; ... Engage me, I'll understand. ---Most problems are psychological. Most solutions are spiritual . "If we try to change our ego with the help of our ego, we only have a better-disguised ego." --Richard Rohr WWBWD (What Would Bill W. Do) | ||
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Posts: 2616
Joined: January 4, 2008
Posted: November 27, 2016, 5:49 PM
I just posted this over on the heroin board...but I'll leave it here too...Gnite u two...have at it...this ones for you
https://youtu.be/TLV4_xaYynY | ||
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Posts: 243
Joined: August 18, 2016
Posted: November 27, 2016, 8:28 PM
What exactly did I say that you perceive as "wrong"? That I suggested that if someone has not had success getting better that they might need other treatment to deal with possible mental disorder or sexual abuse and rape? I showed this to my sponsor. She (who has been sober since 1991...not as long as you, but a good chunk) says that AA/NA is a fellowship of men and women who practice the 12 steps to the best of their ability to stay sober one day at a time. Our primary purpose is to bring the message of recovery to the alcoholic/addict who still suffers. That's right from the literature.
She also said unequivocally thatt AA is not in the business of treating severe mental health disorder or sexual trauma. IT'S ONLY FOCUS IS NOT DRINKING/USING ONE DAY AT A TIME, USING THE 12 STEPS TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY AND CARRYING THE 12 STEP MESSAGE OF RECOVERY TO THE ALCOHOLIC/ADDICT WHO STILL SUFFERS. It is a "fellowship", a support system, to help us live soberly There ARE people who have suffered who need other therapies, along with 12 step or other help to get well. Whenever this is mentioned you react harshly...like making another suggestion is sacrilege and that it somehow means AA/NA isn't good enough, or doesn't work or..fill in the blank. IT MEANS NONE OF THOSE THINGS. Other suggestions are simply that....other suggestions. Why these suggestions or thoughts bother you so much is beyond me. Can you explain it? If I AM missing something, then I want to know, because I do care. You alluding to the fact that "I don't care", by the way, IS a pot-shot. My sponsor said she could feel your seething anger in your post and was concerned that someone who claims such strong recovery is so reactionary to other's suggestions and why you feel the need for one-upmanship. Not only in this thread, but in a few of the others, too? She thought perhaps this is somehow bringing up a conflict that you have. You anger is palpable. As I said, explain to me what I posted that was "wrong" and that "I know nothing about". You posted something thaat wasn't accurate, also. You said It is obvious to anyone who has worked the 12 Steps and recovered from those "grave emotional and mental disorders" that AA/NA is EXACTLY what is needed and nothing more. There are some people who's disorders cannot be treated with the 12 steps alone and insisting that it can is untrue and dangerous. As AA says, "We are not doctors!" Have you ever heard of Paranoid Schizophrenia? A biologically based mental illness? Or bi-polar, or major depressive disorder? AA is NOT qualified to "treat" these people and IT SAYS SO IN THE LITERATURE! IT'S PRIMARY PURPOSE IS TO STOP/DRINKING OR USING AND TO CARRY THE MESSAGE OF RECOVERY. Your insistance that every person with every disorder can be treated with the 12 steps is not only ignorant, but dangerous. Especially for serious illnesss like schizophrenia or bi-polar disorder, Sometimes addicts/alcoholics are using to cover up mental health problems. These can be so severe and debilitating that they aren't even capable of basic self care When they are stable, then a 12 step program would be great support...but treating mental illness and trauma is not AA/NA's primary purpose. Again, the original poster was lamenting that her daughter kept relapsing..sometimes it is because of undiagnosed mental illness or trauma, hence the suggestion that maybe she was not getting what she needed from treatment. Again, a suggestion...nothing more... This post has been edited by lolleedee on November 27, 2016, 8:54 PM | ||
Posts: 288
Joined: October 12, 2006
Posted: November 27, 2016, 8:59 PM
PB: Are you seriously advising people that if they have GRAVE emotional and MENTAL disorders, ALL they need to get better is AA meetings?
-------------------- JEN I have not been given a spirit of fear but of power,love and a sound mind. 
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Posted: November 27, 2016, 10:16 PM
Exactly jen...I'm not trying to get into this quarrel? (shockingly) i would like to say that lollie NEVER said aa isn't a route to take. I think everything is getting misconstrued....everyone here is here to give THEIR experience..whats worked for them.
Shouldn't be knocking alternatives as far as recovery and SUPPORT each other...no cheap shots.. | ||
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Posts: 2616
Joined: January 4, 2008
Posted: November 27, 2016, 11:26 PM
Lollie...you wrote " AA/NA is a wonderful support group, but it is NOT treatment. If she is in a place that is just a glorified 12 step meeting, she is probably not getting what she needs to stay clean. Treatment should include one on one counseling by a licensed therapist who is familiar with treating addiction. Often, addicts have mental health issues that they are self-medicating with drugs/alcohol that need to be addressed before any meaningful sobriety can happen
..This comes off ...to me at least...as belittlement and as some one who is stating fact ...which in reality..is actually your opinion. ...there is no guarantee in the staying clean department whether you do everything you suggest as an" aftercare plan" or whether you get on methadone. ..or whether you combine everything...or just do 12 steps.....statistics favor those that make them ...the reality is...you can suggest...but you can't predict...guarantee. ..or state as fact that someone will remain clean .... Your point that those suffering from grave mental health issues ...need more than 12 step programs to stay clean...is also...opinion...AA NA does employ outside help for issues...but just because it does..and should.. it still does not guarantee anyone will stay clean...therapy...meds...etc...does not always equal clean time... and I think that's where this is getting derailed....PB believes AA NA will keep you clean if you follow the program...fully....and I can say I've seen that for lots of people. ..I've also seen it fail...as I have seen therapy...and a hundred other programs fail..simply because...in most cases...we don't follow the program...use the tools...or want to......I get you feel that addicts should try applying multiple programs in combination as a way to stay clean..that's a good suggestion...and its fine to suggest it..but bottom line....it's an opinion...and nothing will work...if we don't work it...not even mmt.... and its like 3am and I can't even believe I'm awake writing this. ..see...your all giving me nightmares. ..lol Peace Con | ||
Posts: 733
Joined: October 5, 2015
Posted: November 27, 2016, 11:41 PM
Hi Bet59, Sorry about your daughter. I agree with what Kimmy told you. If she was my daughter I would let her go and stop helping her anymore. I think us helping does more harm than good. I would never have thought that until I came on this board and learned to quit enabling. Its hard to do but you have to tell yourself, enoughs enough! You deserve a life too! Good Luck! Mary🌻
This post has been edited by Mandm on November 27, 2016, 11:45 PM | ||
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Posts: 733
Joined: October 5, 2015
Posted: November 28, 2016, 12:26 AM
Hi All, I have great respect for all your determination in getting you to this place in your lives where your free of drugs/alcohol or still fighting the good fight to get free. I think no matter what the arguments about everybody wants the same thing in the end. You have more to bond over than argue over!! I think you should step back for a second and stop being angry with each other. Papa Bear is a veteran to the AA recovery and its only natural when something or someone saves you from dying you want that for others too. He doesn't want to hurt people! He wants to help them! If someone spoke wrongly on something, please give him/her a break. Does anyone know how many people PB might have saved by just starting them off in the direction of the AA/NA...You can call me all the b****** you want to, but my daughters probably beat you to it. So for the sake of all who's been through the same hellish struggles as you, please forgive, forget and move on. None of you have to help people on here but you do because your good people and what you do might save a persons life. Who's to say? Your all important on here. I've read a lot of your posts and you give good advice. Many would be at a loss without you all. God Bless. Mary 💜
This post has been edited by Mandm on November 28, 2016, 12:40 AM | ||
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Posts: 2616
Joined: January 4, 2008
Posted: November 28, 2016, 12:33 AM
Agreed. ..
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Posted: November 28, 2016, 12:47 AM
A true and mature post mary..thank you ☺ we should take what we want and leave the rest..
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